Grumpy about my mobile again!

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › Grumpy about my mobile again!

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#945425 4-Dec-2013 15:24

DonGould:
However, you should care about what I do want. You should care VERY VERY VERY much about what I do want because what I actually want seems to need, an almost, nightly amount of updating.

Let's look at the iPhone 5 List...

* TradeMe app - lost count of the updates on that little pup in the last month and so far I haven't even used it.
* Westpac bank app
* ASB bank app
* ANZ bank app
* Kiwibank app... (yes I have a few banks these days, but all for different reasons and more people I talk to are the same).
* AnyDo - neighbour recommended that one, it's done a few updates... (opps that's on the S4, but you get the idea!)

The list goes on with a few more, all of which have been getting a good suck of the sav.

In the mean time I've been deleting applications.

Deletion is a very negative thing to be doing. It's basically me saying "FFS, I didn't ask the dealer to put all this ad crap in the boot, back seat, front seat, on the windows, etc, of my new car!"

Can you imagine my reaction if I purchased a new car and then had to spend hours over the next week just removing the 'sales decals' off all the windows, mirrors, etc just so I could use the car?

Nik, As a provider you're going to sell me lots of data just doing updates. So the more things you put on my phone that I actually want the better it is for YOU.

The more time I have to spend removing stuff I didn't ask for, the less time I'm spending putting anything on it that I actually want.

Given that Apple heavily restrict what is and isn't included in the device, much of this should be directed at Apple in this instance.

As to updates, can't you just enable auto update over wifi and it ceases to be a problem? Surely iOS gives this option.

I agree it would be nice to get a 'cleaner' initial experience, but this sort of thing is typically not the carriers choice, but the handset manufacturers.

It would be great if all these components of the experience - the third-party retail vendor, the handset provider, and the carrier, - could all work together in a more integrated way to provide a more satisfying customer experience, but I fear that's a way off, at least for little old NZ.

tdgeek

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#945426 4-Dec-2013 15:25

DonGould:
tdgeek: I'm not sure if your post was being aggravated at my comment re an app, hope not.

...

Above is my personal comment, not from my employer.

TD your comments were great and no one has been aggravating at all.

As far as I'm concerned this has been a very constructive discussion thread so far.

A number of people have 'liked' a number of the comments that others have made, which indicates that a few folk are reading and just thinking about the issues.

This is what I like about this forum. It's a great place for discussion.

People like Simon, Peter and John, who have all chimed in and all work for different providers, all know that their views or comments are only ever taken as a brief presentation of their personal thoughts on the spur of the moment and that discussion here really is "Chatham House Rules".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_House_Rule

Cheers Don and tks for clarifying re my post. It has been a good discussion particularly when those of us who work for competing providers can chime in as one

DonGould

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#945428 4-Dec-2013 15:36

tdgeek: Cheers Don and tks for clarifying re my post. It has been a good discussion particularly when those of us who work for competing providers can chime in as one

You're more than welcome.

I fully agree that there are times that competing providers shouldn't be commenting on issues between a customer and their provider, but this isn't one of those.

If this was a discussion to be had with 2Deg only then it would be off line with Salty and his team, not in the open space.

I think this discussion is important.

2Degrees have historically moved very quickly to meet user expectation and interests.

I frankly wonder how much they've been reading, thinking, planing and doing rather than just responding?

I'm sure that everyone thinks some of my comments are just a bit OTT, while others are interesting 'food for thought'.

I don't have all the answers, I don't know that any of us do.

D

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DonGould

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#945432 4-Dec-2013 15:42

Inphinity:

Given that Apple heavily restrict what is and isn't included in the device, much of this should be directed at Apple in this instance.

As to updates, can't you just enable auto update over wifi and it ceases to be a problem? Surely iOS gives this option.

I agree it would be nice to get a 'cleaner' initial experience, but this sort of thing is typically not the carriers choice, but the handset manufacturers.

It would be great if all these components of the experience - the third-party retail vendor, the handset provider, and the carrier, - could all work together in a more integrated way to provide a more satisfying customer experience, but I fear that's a way off, at least for little old NZ.

Little old NZ has a great deal of power in this space and we stand well above our pay grade often.

Salty would you like to chime in about your Oracle based billing system?

I am not in the habit of ranting in a space where there is no chance of change.

The fact is that these discussions are often considered and changes are made based on them.

Often the result is "Ok, you think you want that... but have I got a treat in store for you!"

In this specific case, I'm on a 24 month contract, so I might be waiting a while to see some value and get a bit sadder before I'm less grumpy again, but in the big picture, 2 years is not that long and I'm sure I could 'upgrade' out of the space if I wanted to.

What many here have confirmed is that there are issues here that need some more thought.

It's clear from what others have said that I'm not along on the poor OOBE.

We need to constantly keep our eye on the ball.

On a different note... I'm currently working on some Microsoft software licensing needs... that space does seem to have improved! Only took a decade guy!

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SaltyNZ

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#945442 4-Dec-2013 16:01

DonGould:
Salty would you like to chime in about your Oracle based billing system?

As a general comment, we are always working on both new things, and improvements to existing things, but I obviously cannot even comment upon what areas those things might be.

I can tell you one fun fact about our IN -- although we are the only carrier to use the full kit, we are not the only carrier in NZ (nor even the first carrier) to use it. It is left to the reader as an exercise to compare our offerings with other operators and see if you can guess which one(s) might also be using it, and which bits of it they're using. Also, technically, we use it for rating and charging, not billing. 'Billing' refers specifically to the generation of invoices, and we don't use it for that.

The main advantage it gives us is real-time spend control. Whether or not that should be turned on by default when you sign up to postpay is a contentious question, because, as in every other case, subscribers run the gamut from 'I'm a grown-up. Bugger off and leave me alone' to 'Warn me I'm making a phone call every time I make a phone call.' We have to compromise, and one size does not fit all.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

NikT

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#945452 4-Dec-2013 16:05

DonGould:

Happy, No.... but would I? Don't know. I'd have to think about that.

But you could 'sell' this to me. How many people buy an extended warranty on something that they just don't need to. CGA?

If you didn't have to spend so much time doing 'your paper work' you'd have more time to actually 'sell me' something useful.

You need to sort out your paper work war so that you have time to spend with me.

Sorting out which apps you want is your paperwork, because it is your device. Not every user will want every app, or any apps. For example, of the apps you listed below, the only one I personally use is Trade Me - and even then, I would prefer it not be preloaded (Or more to the point, preloaded & not removable), because every user's use-case & preferences are different, and this is the advantage of smartphones as truly personal computers. Hence the opportunity you have identified for a walkthrough/setup.

One size doesn't fit all. I find your observations quite interesting because you're a new user to the current crop of smartphones, and while the market is still growing (especially in NZ), many users come to these devices already very savvy with the ecosystems & platforms. They know what they want, and they don't want anything unnecessary taking up precious space on their devices. Hence the love many have for Nexus devices, running 'vanilla' Android, without all of the preloaded apps & features that Samsung/HTC/Sony/LG et al consider to be value-adds, and of course the strong following for Apple.

There are diverse & robust backup & restore options for each ecosystem, allowing users to transfer everything over from their previous devices with minimum fuss. As people upgrade more & the number of potentially brand new users dwindles, the need for driving lessons decreases.

I feel there is a happy medium in terms of what can & should be provided on device out of box. I've personally spent a lot of time examining & dissecting Android builds for many different devices, including a number of operator-branded ones, which can & do add value in terms of neat, small, inobtrusive things like including exclusive notification sounds & wallpapers that both localise otherwise global technology, & can easily be disabled.

I also don't care for "Your bloatware". My S4 came with a stack of it and so far most of it has managed to do little but annoy me.

Feedback for Samsung, then. :)

Bear in mind that what you consider useful, others consider bloatware, & vice versa.

However, you should care about what I do want. You should care VERY VERY VERY much about what I do want because what I actually want seems to need, an almost, nightly amount of updating.

Welcome to smartphones. Their strength is in the ability to rapidly change, fix, & upgrade core functionality in tiny increments. Recommend turning on automatic updates over WiFi & forgetting about it if the micromanagement isn't to your liking. I like it lots, but that's me as a platform enthusiast.

Let's look at the iPhone 5 List...

* TradeMe app - lost count of the updates on that little pup in the last month and so far I haven't even used it.
* Westpac bank app
* ASB bank app
* ANZ bank app
* Kiwibank app... (yes I have a few banks these days, but all for different reasons and more people I talk to are the same).
* AnyDo - neighbour recommended that one, it's done a few updates... (opps that's on the S4, but you get the idea!)

The list goes on with a few more, all of which have been getting a good suck of the sav.

I disagree that this sort of stuff should be preloaded. I don't use any of those banks, don't like Any.Do, & do like Trade Me. So your use-case is not mine, and the setup experience would inherently need to be personal, or else...

In the mean time I've been deleting applications.

...you'd be spending a lot more time doing that. Plenty of users wouldn't bother, as demonstrated by every relative that still runs older versions of Internet Explorer with toolbars, bookmarks, & all the other on-by-default stuff intact.

Personalisation of this nature takes time. It does not make money, because it's all third party services that have no operator affiliation. Retail sales folks are there primarily to sell things & meet targets. This is, as I'm sure you realise, a nice-to-have. Vodafone Ninjas would, I'd wager, be happy to help in this regard, if they had the time to do so - a customer with a serious problem would most likely take priority over a nice-to-have.

Can you imagine my reaction if I purchased a new car and then had to spend hours over the next week just removing the 'sales decals' off all the windows, mirrors, etc just so I could use the car?

Ah, like all the stickers on Windows laptops!

Nik, As a provider you're going to sell me lots of data just doing updates. So the more things you put on my phone that I actually want the better it is for YOU.

Sure. I love apps. I spend a lot of time using & researching apps. It's a third party ecosystem that does not generate revenue for the operators, primarily for Apple & Google. Where does the responsibility lie? I would argue that what you're describing is not akin to a car dealer showing you how to work all the fancy bells & whistles of a new car, and more akin to asking them to teach you how to drive.

Which, as mentioned, is a gap in the market. I'm not convinced it's a gap that the operators should be filling entirely by themselves, but it would be nice - like the chap with the barbecue - if someone did.

Again, you might want to update apps over WiFi instead of mobile data.

Is this device mine or YOURS?

Is your PC yours, or your ISP's?

You need to invest in your future business interest. Doing 45 minutes of your paper work is not an investment in me and it's even less of an investment in your business.

Food for thought? :)

The sign-up process and a walkthrough of a new device are separate experiences that could be grouped together, but needn't necessarily be. Customers might be in a hurry at the store, and want to learn about the device in the comfort of their own homes. Have you seen Amazon's Mayday service? This may be the sort of thing you're after.

Product Manager @ PB Tech

Smartphones @ PB Tech | Headphones @ PB Tech

DonGould

3892 posts

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#945474 4-Dec-2013 16:24

SaltyNZ: As a general comment, we are always working on both new things, and improvements to existing things, but I obviously cannot even comment upon what areas those things might be.

Ok that was a bit obtuse.... I really was hoping you might just link some of the press release stuff that was done around the awards that your stuff got that was already in the public domain.

I remember thinking at the time that the work done was quite smart.

D

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DonGould

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#945477 4-Dec-2013 16:27

SaltyNZ:
The main advantage it gives us is real-time spend control. Whether or not that should be turned on by default when you sign up to postpay is a contentious question, because, as in every other case, subscribers run the gamut from 'I'm a grown-up. Bugger off and leave me alone' to 'Warn me I'm making a phone call every time I make a phone call.' We have to compromise, and one size does not fit all.

Personally I think spend control should be there for everyone by default. It should by default limit me to twice my planned spend.

Like you say, I'm a big boy with big boy boots... I choose a $40 dollar plan for a reason. My reason in this cause was that it was double what I was spending, and it gave me a reasonable hardware credit.

I think it's reasonable to assume that I should be spoken to (by your AI) once I've got to double what I planned to spend in my inital period.

Once I get to three times ($120) it's time to 'send a real person' to have a chat.

Clearly I was not on the right plan. Finding out once the bill hits 11 times my planed spend... that's just never going to create a good OOBE.

D

Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz

DonGould

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#945490 4-Dec-2013 16:40

What Nik says below is what I should have been spending my in store time talking about and doing.

I was just chatting to a fellow programming who agreed that if you go to a "Lady of the Night Establishment" you don't expect to spend 45 minutes to get your credit card processed.

Nik makes some good points.

I also think he's kinda miss understood me on a few.

Nik what happens about platform transition?

I went from Android 2.2 to iOS7.2. That's going to keep happening.

NikT:
DonGould:

Happy, No.... but would I? Don't know. I'd have to think about that.

But you could 'sell' this to me. How many people buy an extended warranty on something that they just don't need to. CGA?

If you didn't have to spend so much time doing 'your paper work' you'd have more time to actually 'sell me' something useful.

You need to sort out your paper work war so that you have time to spend with me.

Sorting out which apps you want is your paperwork, because it is your device. Not every user will want every app, or any apps. For example, of the apps you listed below, the only one I personally use is Trade Me - and even then, I would prefer it not be preloaded (Or more to the point, preloaded & not removable), because every user's use-case & preferences are different, and this is the advantage of smartphones as truly personal computers. Hence the opportunity you have identified for a walkthrough/setup.

One size doesn't fit all. I find your observations quite interesting because you're a new user to the current crop of smartphones, and while the market is still growing (especially in NZ), many users come to these devices already very savvy with the ecosystems & platforms. They know what they want, and they don't want anything unnecessary taking up precious space on their devices. Hence the love many have for Nexus devices, running 'vanilla' Android, without all of the preloaded apps & features that Samsung/HTC/Sony/LG et al consider to be value-adds, and of course the strong following for Apple.

There are diverse & robust backup & restore options for each ecosystem, allowing users to transfer everything over from their previous devices with minimum fuss. As people upgrade more & the number of potentially brand new users dwindles, the need for driving lessons decreases.

I feel there is a happy medium in terms of what can & should be provided on device out of box. I've personally spent a lot of time examining & dissecting Android builds for many different devices, including a number of operator-branded ones, which can & do add value in terms of neat, small, inobtrusive things like including exclusive notification sounds & wallpapers that both localise otherwise global technology, & can easily be disabled.

I also don't care for "Your bloatware". My S4 came with a stack of it and so far most of it has managed to do little but annoy me.

Feedback for Samsung, then. :)

Bear in mind that what you consider useful, others consider bloatware, & vice versa.

However, you should care about what I do want. You should care VERY VERY VERY much about what I do want because what I actually want seems to need, an almost, nightly amount of updating.

Welcome to smartphones. Their strength is in the ability to rapidly change, fix, & upgrade core functionality in tiny increments. Recommend turning on automatic updates over WiFi & forgetting about it if the micromanagement isn't to your liking. I like it lots, but that's me as a platform enthusiast.

Let's look at the iPhone 5 List...

* TradeMe app - lost count of the updates on that little pup in the last month and so far I haven't even used it.
* Westpac bank app
* ASB bank app
* ANZ bank app
* Kiwibank app... (yes I have a few banks these days, but all for different reasons and more people I talk to are the same).
* AnyDo - neighbour recommended that one, it's done a few updates... (opps that's on the S4, but you get the idea!)

The list goes on with a few more, all of which have been getting a good suck of the sav.

I disagree that this sort of stuff should be preloaded. I don't use any of those banks, don't like Any.Do, & do like Trade Me. So your use-case is not mine, and the setup experience would inherently need to be personal, or else...

In the mean time I've been deleting applications.

...you'd be spending a lot more time doing that. Plenty of users wouldn't bother, as demonstrated by every relative that still runs older versions of Internet Explorer with toolbars, bookmarks, & all the other on-by-default stuff intact.

Personalisation of this nature takes time. It does not make money, because it's all third party services that have no operator affiliation. Retail sales folks are there primarily to sell things & meet targets. This is, as I'm sure you realise, a nice-to-have. Vodafone Ninjas would, I'd wager, be happy to help in this regard, if they had the time to do so - a customer with a serious problem would most likely take priority over a nice-to-have.

Can you imagine my reaction if I purchased a new car and then had to spend hours over the next week just removing the 'sales decals' off all the windows, mirrors, etc just so I could use the car?

Ah, like all the stickers on Windows laptops!

Nik, As a provider you're going to sell me lots of data just doing updates. So the more things you put on my phone that I actually want the better it is for YOU.

Sure. I love apps. I spend a lot of time using & researching apps. It's a third party ecosystem that does not generate revenue for the operators, primarily for Apple & Google. Where does the responsibility lie? I would argue that what you're describing is not akin to a car dealer showing you how to work all the fancy bells & whistles of a new car, and more akin to asking them to teach you how to drive.

Which, as mentioned, is a gap in the market. I'm not convinced it's a gap that the operators should be filling entirely by themselves, but it would be nice - like the chap with the barbecue - if someone did.

Again, you might want to update apps over WiFi instead of mobile data.

Is this device mine or YOURS?

Is your PC yours, or your ISP's?

You need to invest in your future business interest. Doing 45 minutes of your paper work is not an investment in me and it's even less of an investment in your business.

Food for thought? :)

The sign-up process and a walkthrough of a new device are separate experiences that could be grouped together, but needn't necessarily be. Customers might be in a hurry at the store, and want to learn about the device in the comfort of their own homes. Have you seen Amazon's Mayday service? This may be the sort of thing you're after.

Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz

DonGould

3892 posts

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#945493 4-Dec-2013 16:42

Answers: As the OP, I've been flagging a few of the posts as "An answer". I know this thread is getting way to TL;DR.

If you think a post has some real merit then I'm all for a bit of flagging unless the Mods have execption... but let's keep the flaging to 'useful' content v's "that's telling ya mate!" :)

D

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NikT

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#945497 4-Dec-2013 16:47

DonGould:

I went from Android 2.2 to iOS7.2. That's going to keep happening.

I'd say the onus is primarily on Apple, or Google, or Microsoft, or even Blackberry to make sure you have a great transition to their product from their competitors'. :)

Product Manager @ PB Tech

Smartphones @ PB Tech | Headphones @ PB Tech

DonGould

3892 posts

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#945504 4-Dec-2013 17:04

NikT: I'd say the onus is primarily on Apple, or Google, or Microsoft, or even Blackberry to make sure you have a great transition to their product from their competitors'. :)

I half agree.

The onus is also on the carriers to make sure they provide assistance with supporting tools.

As a carrier you're the 'system integrator'.

Me: "Hi, got this phone I'm keen to use..."

Telecom: "Oh crap, it's toyota. We just put Ericsson 4G gear in... those don't work here..."

Vodafone: "Oh bugger, it's honda... we just put ...

You get the idea.

My phone doesn't stop working because Salty changed the database from Oracle to Microsoft SQL Server or Johnr installed MySQL or Postgre as a DBMS system.

I would agree with the suggestion that this should be put on the retailers too.

Harvey Norman is more than big enough to be expected to put some investment in here. After all they are the retailer and that is a retailers job.

When I buy a new car the dealer will take my kids car seat out and put it in the new car, they will do the same with my CD player or at least move the CDs from one stacker to the next.

What they don't do is cause me to go from the Honda dealership to the BMW dealership to change the number plate.

D

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richms

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#945697 4-Dec-2013 21:35

The carriers job is simply to provide you with an amount of data and call time and SMS's per month on their network in exchange for a monthly or whatever fee.

The amount of handholding you are proposing for the purchase process is soemthing that you might expect if you were as an analogy buying a premium new car from a lexus dealer or something. They have the overheads of it and give you the markup on the goods to support it.

But you want to go and buy your phone and get all this support for your ignorance from a cheap retailer who is selling the same phone at the same price as every other retailer who sells it so has no fat in their pricing to be able to support this whole sit down and educate you on usage scenarios that you desire.

The time spend on the GE stuff is all accounted for in their kickback from GE for the new customer signup that they have done. Nothing else they would sit down with you for is going to get paid for so the only thing that will come out of the scenarios that you wish for is a whole lot of retailers in receivership because they cant make any money because all their staff are off helping customers understand that if they buy 500 megs and use 700 megs that it will cost them money.

There are already plenty of spend controls and alerts available from all the telcos, and the ultimate spend control is to go onto prepay. With the lack of understanding that you have demonstrated with how things cost money, I think that going onto prepay would be the best option.

Richard rich.ms

munchkin

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#946027 5-Dec-2013 12:51

DonGould: Question: How is attempting to support the 'small guys' making me look?

Personally, I think it's making you look silly. Of everything you've mentioned, few-to-none are to do with carrier issues.

richms: With the lack of understanding that you have demonstrated with how things cost money, I think that going onto prepay would be the best option.

^ Seconded. Perhaps with this.

tilde

44 posts

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#946071 5-Dec-2013 14:13

i think the reason you are getting a bit of friendly stick in the replies is because, quite simply, you aren't the hapless non-techie individual that you claim to be regarding smartphones. when your previous posts talks about home wifi serving up media content, having one's own domain name etc. people here assume that you are more of a techie than the general public who genuinely doesn't know.

which is backed up by the latest quote that you don't want "bloatware" on your phone, yet you propose that a random salesperson with no history of your usage suggest certain apps to mirror what you currently have? isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

using car analogies that don't match further adds to the situation. the equivalent of "When I buy a new car the dealer will take my kids car seat out and put it in the new car, they will do the same with my CD player or at least move the CDs from one stacker to the next." is "the sales person takes the SIM card from your existing phone, and puts it into the new phone and powers it on making sure it works"

the bit about having to do paperwork instead of teaching you to use the device analogy is also wrong. the equivalent to a car dealer would be if you had a bought a car on HP/car loan, and the car dealer is sitting down with you completing your paperwork rather than teaching you how to drive.

i'm not entirely certain at this point you aren't trolling for bites...

ps. you don't have the time to research a $1500 investment, that you use often? maybe that dollar amount is chump change to you, but it's not that hard to spend half hour on geekzone or the internet to figure out what works for you...

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