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9 posts

Wannabe Geek
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# 208345 7-Feb-2017 20:09
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Just wanting an opinion.

 

Recently we had a broadband fibre fault that took about 4 days to fix. So 4 days without broadband or landline phone.  When I asked for a rebate on my bill for the 4 days without service I was told that 2 degrees do "not offer compensation for faults that are beyond their control."

 

I went back and mentioned the CGA and that I was only looking for a rebate - not full compensation for the mobile data & voice we had to use otherwise.

 

Same response.

 

"Thanks for the email. We do our best to work with the relevant parties and get the problems fixed ASAP, which we have done in this case. However we are sorry that as this has not been an error made by 2degrees we are unable to provide time without services.  Hope you would understand."

 

 

 

Emailed back again, complaining that, while it may not be their error, it wasn't mine either, and they were quite welcome to claim against Enable if they wanted.

 

 

 

Got exactly the same response again.

 

 

 

Now, as I understand it I could take it to the disputes tribunal, but not really worth it due to the application $45 cost and small rebate requested.

 

 

 

Does anyone have a similar story, or opinion or idea?

 

 

 

I would add that the fault was fixed and involved testing the system, blowing in a new fibre pair from the cabinet and re-splicing. So 4 days is not unreasonable especially as it was over a weekend. They (Downer-Enable) communicated well and turned up when they said they would. No problems with them.

 

 

 

rprosser

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  # 1716767 7-Feb-2017 20:15
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My opinion is that it's a bit cheeky to make you pay for a service that isn't being provided. When I had a similar issue with a different ISP they were quick to point out that the terms and conditions don't guarantee uptime, which felt like hiding behind the legalese. It's one thing to not guarantee uptime (faults happen and I wouldn't expect any extra compensation for them) but it's another to actually charge you for a service that you're not receiving.

 

Imagine if the service was down for two weeks and you were still asked to pay for the entire month.

 

To put it another way, if you're paying, say, $90 for 30 days of service and you only get 26 days worth, then you should get 4 "free" days to make up for it (whether this would be a $12 discount or just a "month" that lasts for 34 days doesn't worry me).




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Wannabe Geek
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  # 1716776 7-Feb-2017 20:48
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I believe that their terms & conditions state the same sort of thing, but they are providing a service, and the CGA cannot be "contracted out" so the statement is not really valid (IMHO).  Also it appears more in the mode of excluding consequential damages - which I'm not trying to claim. I just want a rebate for the lack of service.

 

rprosser


 
 
 
 


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  # 1716788 7-Feb-2017 20:59
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What does your contract with 2degrees say regarding compensation for time the service isn't available?


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  # 1716816 7-Feb-2017 21:16
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rprosser:

 

"Thanks for the email. We do our best to work with the relevant parties and get the problems fixed ASAP, which we have done in this case. However we are sorry that as this has not been an error made by 2degrees we are unable to provide time without services.  Hope you would understand."   Emailed back again, complaining that, while it may not be their error, it wasn't mine either, and they were quite welcome to claim against Enable if they wanted.   Got exactly the same response again.   Now, as I understand it I could take it to the disputes tribunal, but not really worth it due to the application $45 cost and small rebate requested.   Does anyone have a similar story, or opinion or idea?   I would add that the fault was fixed and involved testing the system, blowing in a new fibre pair from the cabinet and re-splicing. So 4 days is not unreasonable especially as it was over a weekend. They (Downer-Enable) communicated well and turned up when they said they would. No problems with them.   rprosser        

 

They can't contract out of the CGA. Section 43(4) of the CGA makes it an offence under s 13 of the Fair Trading Act (which proscribes against false and misleading representations in trade) for an entity to purport to contract out of the CGA. Of course, all this assumes you are a home/personal user. If you're in trade/business, that's another matter.

 

@2degreesCare this is the second time in less than 6 months where your company has potentially behaved quite disgracefully in law towards a customer. Come and make things right -- the law or not, it's pretty rich to make someone pay for something that they couldn't use. You can go and duke it out with your own service provider.

 

OP: I suggest you post on their Facebook wall, do it calmly and cite all the relevant statutory provisions cited above (the full texts can be found at www.legislation.govt.nz) if you are a home user. Ask for the complaint to be escalated to a compliance manager or their Head of Legal. Then make sure you tell everyone you know that 2Degrees think they are above the law. And I speak from the POV of being a former practising lawyer and a senior compliance/commercial manager at various corporates. I would seriously discipline the staff members concerned if I were working for 2Degrees, assuming they ever had adequate Fair Trading Act training in the first place.

 

Timmay: the OP's contract is irrelevant, provided he is a personal/home user.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


defiant
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  # 1716817 7-Feb-2017 21:17
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If you wanted 100% SLA then you'd be paying significantly more than what you currently are


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  # 1716821 7-Feb-2017 21:21
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nas:

 

If you wanted 100% SLA then you'd be paying significantly more than what you currently are

 

 

He's not wanting 100% uptime. He wants to not be made to pay for 4 days' worth of usage (not 4 minutes or 4 hours) that he never had through no fault of his own. Note that the OP explicitly excluded any claims of consequential damages, for example.

 

 

 

 




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Wannabe Geek
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  # 1716823 7-Feb-2017 21:23
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Terms & Conditions - Std. 2Degrees -

 

Broadband

 

"We will use all reasonable efforts to ensure that the Services are reliable and available at all times, and will use skill and care in doing so. However, because we rely on networks and equipment which we do not control, we cannot promise that our Services will always be available or fully-functioning. We will not be liable or responsible for anything which occurs as a result of other providers’ infrastructure systems. If our Services are unavailable for any reason we will endeavour to restore service as soon as possible. If there is a problem with your Service, please contact us at ......."   (No time period specified or mention of charges continuing in event of no service being available).

 

Home Phone

 

- Nothing mentioned wrt faults -

 

But irrespective of any statement they put in their Ts&Cs, if the CGA applies, it can't be contracted out. If there was another major earthquake and service was lost for 6months or so, would I be liable to keep paying them regardless of the loss of service, given I am on a fixed term contract?

 

I did find that

 

"2degrees Broadband is a member of the Telecommunications Disputes Resolution scheme, a free independent service to help customers resolve disputes."  Maybe I should contact them. It seems a lot of trouble for the small amount involved, but they've "upset" me a bit by just repeating the same phrase without expanding on it or offering further explanation.

 

rprosser

 

 




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Wannabe Geek
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  # 1716854 7-Feb-2017 21:44
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Yes, Sorry, I should have noted I am a home user.

 

Looks like the Telecommunications Disputes Resolution service may be a reasonable approach. I've tried to avoid Facebook until now but it's possible also.

 

rprosser

 

 


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  # 1716949 7-Feb-2017 23:50
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Sure it may be in their contract that they don't have to compensate, but it's a good faith gesture. My folks had a 4-5 day VDSL outage with another large ISP and ended up getting a free month of internet. It wasn't even the ISP's fault, was a patching issue at the Chorus end. 


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  # 1717009 8-Feb-2017 09:30
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Back when Dunedin was affected by a fibre outage, I asked if 2D was able to compensate for the outage with an increased mobile data allowance that some users on other providers had been able to get. Of course I got "No" back as the answer. I was fully expecting no to be the answer, but had hoped that years of service and a bit of good faith/PR from 2D would see them provide when asked.

 

 




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  # 1717084 8-Feb-2017 10:17
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Well, I've put a formal complaint into 2degrees now - as required by the Telecommunications Disputes Resolution service. So we'll see where it goes from there.

 

rprosser


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  # 1717179 8-Feb-2017 13:08
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Hi there rprosser,

 

Sorry to hear you had a fault on your connection, I'm glad to see that this was resolved swiftly and you are back up and running

 

Our terms and conditions do state that services provided are best effort, as we are not able to guarantee services will be available 100% of the time due to circumstances outside of our control (such as what has occurred here). We have provided reasonable efforts to restore the services in a reasonable time frame, as outlined in the terms and conditions.

 

Any credit for time without service is assessed on a case by case basis and depends on the nature of the fault and potential causes for the fault. We are more than happy to check out the circumstances for you if you like, please PM us with your address and broadband customer number and we'll have a look and see what the situation is for you. Hopefully we can do something for you.

 

Thanks,

 

Ralph ^JOB


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  # 1717189 8-Feb-2017 13:26
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I think dejadeadnz has explained it well above, as has lxsw20


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  # 1717211 8-Feb-2017 14:03
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Suddenly vodafones promise to offer a data pack for on account sims to compensate for loss of bb isn't quite so valueless I guess. What a poor show from 2D - and it should not require the social media team to step in.




________

 

Antonios K

 

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  # 1717359 8-Feb-2017 19:40
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2degreesCare:

 

Hi there rprosser,

 

Sorry to hear you had a fault on your connection, I'm glad to see that this was resolved swiftly and you are back up and running

 

Our terms and conditions do state that services provided are best effort, as we are not able to guarantee services will be available 100% of the time due to circumstances outside of our control (such as what has occurred here). We have provided reasonable efforts to restore the services in a reasonable time frame, as outlined in the terms and conditions.

 

Any credit for time without service is assessed on a case by case basis and depends on the nature of the fault and potential causes for the fault. We are more than happy to check out the circumstances for you if you like, please PM us with your address and broadband customer number and we'll have a look and see what the situation is for you. Hopefully we can do something for you.

 

Thanks,

 

Ralph ^JOB

 

 

You really need to quit whilst you are 1000 laps behind. In case what I wrote previously made no impact upon you, let me make it abundantly clear: a personal/home user of your services is entitled to protection under the Consumer Guarantees Act, whatever your company's T & Cs state. The CGA prescribes certain protections to which a consumer is entitled, in this case that the service should be fit for a particular purpose (s 29). The service must be reasonably fit for the relevant purpose (i.e. home internet connection) and that it must be of such a nature that it will achieve the relevant result that the consumer has made known to the supplier as being that for which the contract for supply of services was entered into. Most reasonable human beings accept that internet connections will occasionally go down but the OP lost his connection for 4 days through the fault of YOUR contracted supplier of services. He contracted to get his internet from 2Degrees and you arranged to sort his connection out with a third party, in this case Enable.

 

I have been in a senior compliance/commercial roles for multiple listed entities and have practiced commercial law. I can tell you that there is no way in hell that 2Degrees do not have liability terms with Enable that do not allow you to recover direct damages of some sort if Enable stuffs up. It's time that 2Degrees grew a pair and go and claim the probably less-than-$20 back from Enable (if paying it out of your own pocket will be of such devastating effect to 2Degrees' finances that it appears willing to repeatedly embarrass itself on a prominent forum such as this one repeatedly over trivial sums) and then promptly compensate the OP.

 

And what the situation is for the OP is perfectly clear: he's been terribly treated by your company and by you. In a thread where the facts are clear as day, even if you can't promise him anything, the least you could have done was not trivialise the four days he went without his connection by claiming that his issue was "swiftly resolved". 

 

FWIW, I can tell you that 4 senior legal, commercial and/or compliance professionals working for 4 separate listed entities (that I know of) have read this thread. And we are all despairing for the OP and laughing at how your company is shooting itself in the foot. It's time to own up and apologise to the OP. I'll make it my personal mission to recommend people who value customer service and the law to not go near your company.

 

 

 

 


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