LED Lighting

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#625852 16-May-2012 06:01

Ah, people are catching on. It is the drafts you need to cut out first, which is greatly reduced by having less opening to the ceiling (i.e. less than 5% as opposed to about 10%). Also, with a single fitting if everything else is well done then there is little draft as the air has nowhere to go, but with multiple fittings and ~10% opening the draft easily flows between fittings as you get pressure differentials.

Next you want to improve your insulation with abutted insulation instead of say 5cm clearance around each fitting.

Like all scientific data you need to interpret it correctly with the set circumstances else the consumer news article (or Consumer ;-) gets the wrong message across. I can only speculate because the info is not there, but my engineering conclusion is the percentage is most likely the percentage increase in leakage of heat.

There are so many factors, like timber windows are great insulators for a few years but then they are the worst. PVC is great insulators for ever. Aluminium is okay but with huge variation depending on the quality of (or lack of) the thermal break. Same goes for every other component of the house. At the moment for us the worst is the front door. It is solid timber (builder's default is metal...) and I thought it would be ideal, but we took a T&G door and now find the door frame rubber seal does not seal on the grooves of the timber door so we get a draft. Now to design a solution for that...

A major source of heat escape, after other insulation is done, is the gap where gib joins between the wall and ceiling. The gap that is hidden behind architraves and does not have insulation either. Our house plans actually show there is no insulation where from the wall to the eves, which is a band of about 10cm all around the top of the exterior walls. This is similar to Richms T&G ceiling, cold air leaking through the gap.

If you really want to save money, get a heat pump hot water cylinder. But you need to shop around for a good quality one that is not a rip-off price. Then during summer you route the exhaust air into the house and also get cooling. And if only they would design a heat pump oven.

You can never have enough Volvos!

Niel

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#625853 16-May-2012 06:06

Those solid metal LED down lights with massive heat sink in the ceiling are fully sealed and you will not get any drafts, but having a large aluminium block from inside the house to the ceiling space is terrible for keeping the heat in. You need a thermal break. Covering it with insulation might sound great, but it is only to patch a bat situation. Your ceiling board by itself is already a fair insulation with pink batts added to improve on it, but that chunk of aluminium bypasses the ceiling board and drains away the heat.

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timmmay

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#625881 16-May-2012 08:11

richms:
I heat a room with it. No way I would heat the entire house even if I could since I can only be in one room at a time.

Not new, upstairs is a 80s addon with only a token effort to insulate the cieling with some fluffy stuff stuck onto some foil with some batts over the top in parts away from where I was wanting to put more wires thru.

Best thing to keep it warm was to go along all the gaps in the ugly 80's tounge and groove cieling with no more gaps before painting it. could feel the draft before I did that and if it was really windy and I had a window open you could see the insulation move.

Ah yeah, I can keep my bedroom warm with a 1200W oil heater set to very low, so that makes sense. It's only when I want to heat a series of rooms that I need the big heater on.

Getting rid of drafts would be a pretty big win! I was surprised though, going from wool insulation to adding pink batts over the top made quite a big difference too, it's definitely worthwhile. Plastic under the house was a huge win too, took away all the dampness.

Nety

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#626427 16-May-2012 19:48

Niel: Those solid metal LED down lights with massive heat sink in the ceiling are fully sealed and you will not get any drafts, but having a large aluminium block from inside the house to the ceiling space is terrible for keeping the heat in. You need a thermal break. Covering it with insulation might sound great, but it is only to patch a bat situation. Your ceiling board by itself is already a fair insulation with pink batts added to improve on it, but that chunk of aluminium bypasses the ceiling board and drains away the heat.

Good point on the aluminium transferring the heat. I guess that is were the ones suggested that allow insulation over the top would be better however they are CFL not LED so have a much shorter bulb life (15,000 vers 50,000). I will let the dust settle on the changes to the regs and then see what is available.

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#629141 22-May-2012 19:58

What's the primary reason for not using the viribright bulbs outdoors, moisture, temperature or insects getting in?

The back stairs up to our house consist of two flights wrapping around the corner of the house, and they're almost fully enclosed (roof and wall) Just one end is open. Probably no more humid than a lot of houses, but it is quite cold. Cold is only an issue with CFL, right? Do you think I can use the viribright?

Want something low power/heat and long life so that they can be left on while we're out. We've been using CFLs, but they still have that terrible warm up time.

Niel

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#629187 22-May-2012 21:42

For outdoors you can easily go for 3W or 5W LEDs, you need very little.

Issue with outdoor is water and insects, not temperature unless you will run the lights while baked hot by the sun. There are down light fittings with a cover for use outdoor or in bathrooms, then it is limited to about 20W-25W max depending on the manufacturer.

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Niel

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#629188 22-May-2012 21:43

Yes, cold is an issue for CFL and an advantage for LEDs.

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Niel

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#638134 9-Jun-2012 09:34

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4373720/Teardown-slideshow--The-anatomy-of-the-LED-light-bulb?pageNumber=0
This article indicates that you can already get good quality LED bulbs for US$10. So the Viribright pricing at Bunnings is normal to slightly expensive, and the other LED bulbs we get here are very expensive.

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richms

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#638205 9-Jun-2012 12:34

I have had 2 of 24 viribrights fail already. 1 was a BC one in a batten holder so no overheating concerns. The other a ES in one of those 3 spots on a bar fittings. All 8 watt ones since the 5s flicker

Richard rich.ms

Niel

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#638337 9-Jun-2012 21:09

I've got 8 Viribright 8W bulbs which are used lots. One was faulty from new and exchanged, it had a bad connection inside one of the LED arrays so it would flicker every now and again. It is not the best quality available, but currently the only reasonably priced good performing bulb locally available. From the article you can see overseas you get brand names for cheaper.

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switchlighting

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#643455 19-Jun-2012 21:06

Hi All,

Our company Switch Lighting manufactures LED lighting products here in New Zealand. (Just so as you all know I am slightly biased :) )

Here are a few facts on the new down light rules for those that don't know.

There are 5 ratings:

ICF - Insulation can abut and cover the light. No part of the light will get above 80 degree C. This is fire rated.
IC - Insulation can abut and cover the light. No part of the light will get above 80 degree C.
CA80 - Insulation can abut but not cover the light. No part of the light will get above 80 degree C. In fault condition (covered with insulation) the light will not go above 90 degree.
CA135 - Insulation can abut but not cover the light. No part of the light will get above 135 degree C. In fault condition (covered with insulation) the light will not go above 150 degree.
Non IC - Not rated for covering or abutting of insulation. Not for residential housing.

All downlights need to have one of the these ratings.

Things to be aware of:

Companies selling downlights do not have to get them tested, they are allowed to self test. This means the rules can be stretched.

There are halogens with rating CA135 that require you use a special MR16 bulb (aluminium backed to send heat forward). This is all well and good for the original purchaser who knows this, but what about the next owner?

Some LED lights have been tested to the old F hat rating and then applied this to the new IC rating... the test is different and they may well fail the IC test. Ensure any IC light is tested to AS/NZS 60598.2.2:2001 ammendment A (ammendment A is the important part)

If you import a light that is not tested and that light causes a fire..... I would not want to be in your shoes!!

If anyone has any technical or other questions please feel free to ask.

Skolink

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#643592 20-Jun-2012 09:03

Hi Switchlighting, thank you for the clarification of the downlight insulation ratings.
Are you aware of any IC or ICF rated LED downlight, or do they not exist yet?

richms

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#643722 20-Jun-2012 12:23

Another viribright popped last night - so that is now 3 out of about 30 that have failed. Not looking good.

Richard rich.ms

Niel

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#643859 20-Jun-2012 15:38

richms: Another viribright popped last night - so that is now 3 out of about 30 that have failed. Not looking good.

What are you doing to them? I've only had that one that was flickering occasionally from new. Running 8 in total and using them lots.

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Jimmy22

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#643867 20-Jun-2012 15:46

I have had one LED bulb pop , easily replaced for free, usually a 5 year wty on the good ones, havent even been out that long so doesnt take any sort of argument.

LEDS seem to pop if there is any arkn or sparking e.g. bad connection /dirty etc

i would look very hard at the quality of the fittings

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