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#901211 23-Sep-2013 13:30

dclegg:
networkn:

I wish the seemingly NZ branded and owned term "chokers" would stop being used!

Agreed, I hate it.

It's not just a NZ term. Just ask any Aussie who followed Greg Norman in the 90s.

The way I see it, we're still in with a real chance. We have the favoured Port entry for both races tomorrow (according to TVNZ), and whoever gets that generally has a better chance of winning the start. And whoever wins the start seems to have a better chance of dominating and pulling away.

I think the real risk is not beating Oracle on pure "on water" wins, but beating them with overall points. We need to beat them with as little avenue for legal recourse as possible. These AC72s have really made this racing exciting to watch. It would be a shame for all this good work to be undone by a protracted legal battle afterwards.

Port entry, tks for that, I didnt know there were rules on that for the start. Surely if we have that, we would take out one race. Id love to see a very strong win for us, just to show that the start is king, and we arent choking or behind in the tech/sailing skills.

dclegg

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#901212 23-Sep-2013 13:33

tdgeek:

Port entry, tks for that, I didnt know there were rules on that for the start. Surely if we have that, we would take out one race. Id love to see a very strong win for us, just to show that the start is king, and we arent choking or behind in the tech/sailing skills.

It can get a bit convoluted as to who gets the Port entry, especially when delays come into play. See the Herald's explanation for more details.

tdgeek

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#901225 23-Sep-2013 13:42

dclegg:
tdgeek:

Port entry, tks for that, I didnt know there were rules on that for the start. Surely if we have that, we would take out one race. Id love to see a very strong win for us, just to show that the start is king, and we arent choking or behind in the tech/sailing skills.

It can get a bit convoluted as to who gets the Port entry, especially when delays come into play. See the Herald's explanation for more details.

Tks for that will read

CYaBro

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#901243 23-Sep-2013 14:15

On the legal side of things didn't Oracle themselves make a rule that once a judgment has been made you can't appeal?
So they have no way to go back to court to get those two penalty points removed do they?

Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

tdgeek

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#901259 23-Sep-2013 14:44

CYaBro: On the legal side of things didn't Oracle themselves make a rule that once a judgment has been made you can't appeal?
So they have no way to go back to court to get those two penalty points removed do they?

I hope so, as Russell Coutts made the 40 minute rule!

Oblivian

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#901267 23-Sep-2013 14:54

tdgeek:
CYaBro: On the legal side of things didn't Oracle themselves make a rule that once a judgment has been made you can't appeal?
So they have no way to go back to court to get those two penalty points removed do they?

I hope so, as Russell Coutts made the 40 minute rule!

I had a suspicion the strict timing that coincidently gave an apparent window of an hour a race with leadup/after match was more to do with tv.. much like a 20min tv show with ads making up the rest.

And whaddya know.. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11128543

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#901271 23-Sep-2013 15:02

CYaBro: On the legal side of things didn't Oracle themselves make a rule that once a judgment has been made you can't appeal?
So they have no way to go back to court to get those two penalty points removed do they?

The rule only applies during the regatta.
After it's over on the water - it could be open slather. I suspect that it probably will be, there's so much at stake.

Don't discount the possibility that (heaven forbid) OR go on to win, ETNZ might challenge on some technicality. OR made some changes that resulted in significant speed improvement. Measured and approved - there's nothing ETNZ can do until the racing is over.

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tdgeek

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#901287 23-Sep-2013 15:25

Oblivian:
tdgeek:
CYaBro: On the legal side of things didn't Oracle themselves make a rule that once a judgment has been made you can't appeal?
So they have no way to go back to court to get those two penalty points removed do they?

I hope so, as Russell Coutts made the 40 minute rule!

I had a suspicion the strict timing that coincidently gave an apparent window of an hour a race with leadup/after match was more to do with tv.. much like a 20min tv show with ads making up the rest.

And whaddya know.. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11128543

Yep. I am 99% sure that Russell Couts put forward the 40 minutes rule, due to TV issues. Now cannot find evidence but read it the other day after the race cancelled at 40 mins the other day

Sounddude

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#901290 23-Sep-2013 15:27

tdgeek:
I hope so, as Russell Coutts made the 40 minute rule!

American TV made that rule. So they knew how long to broadcast for and so they could play ads etc between races.

American TV dictates everything, just look at NFL.

dclegg

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#901294 23-Sep-2013 15:37

Sounddude:
tdgeek:
I hope so, as Russell Coutts made the 40 minute rule!

American TV made that rule. So they knew how long to broadcast for and so they could play ads etc between races.

American TV dictates everything, just look at NFL.

The problem is that the logic behind the rule was negated by what the outcome would've been, had the race been allowed to continue. But its lucky that discretion wasn't applied, as it would have simply opened up the door for Oracle to protest.

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#901321 23-Sep-2013 16:16

I think tactically we have recently made some big errors.

The big one today being that the way the boat works is that getting up to foil requires more speed than once up and in "mode". Meaning if you fail to have enough speed to gybe foil to foil you have to reach (closer to the wind) speed up and get foiling. We were rolling Oracle, they were struggling to get that initial higher speed required to get into mode. But then we choose to gybe away, the wind speed was to low to get foliling and we watched a gap of 500m grow. It was a bad choice with the same old "in hindsight" spoken afterwards.

The re-race of race 13 was a dogs dinner, Davies made a major balls up by not getting Barker to dip, the difference between dipping and not is about 5-10m. Instead a penalty works out to 300 - 500 meteres. Secondly in that race they had to follow them around at that bottom mark when oracle gybed in our face, but instead they gybed while going 8 knots, that is dead in the water! that dropped to 4 knots, and took a long time 25 seconds to recover. These boats cannot be raced like monohulls!!! That mistake at the bottom, in my mind is what cost us a sniff at that race.

I am personally not so bothered about the 40 minute rule, it was set well before that race started and if it been the other way around no one would be saying Oracle deserved the point.

networkn

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#901332 23-Sep-2013 17:03

I think it's worth noting, something which didn't occur to me until this very second... ETNZ has won 8 races, but Oracle have won 7!

Without the penalties they got, we would have a SERIOUS problem right now.

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#901334 23-Sep-2013 17:16

networkn: I think it's worth noting, something which didn't occur to me until this very second... ETNZ has won 8 races, but Oracle have won 7!

Without the penalties they got, we would have a SERIOUS problem right now.

Not only that but if oracle did win the next two races, but team NZ one the one after that, I can't see Oracle not going to court to get the penalties overruled. TNZ seem to have snatched defeat from victory. I know that it was always going to be against them to win it, as the defender makes the rules. But oracle have done a good job to come back, and I think they have the better boat and team in those higher wind conditions, and I think they will win it unless they make a mistake. The risk of a mistake is quite high though.
TNZ did have a second life anyway, as they were very very lucky not to be out of it earlier when they almost tipped over.

tdgeek

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#901336 23-Sep-2013 17:21

networkn: I think it's worth noting, something which didn't occur to me until this very second... ETNZ has won 8 races, but Oracle have won 7!

Without the penalties they got, we would have a SERIOUS problem right now.

True, but we were winning 3 further races, before they got cancelled.

I'm not taking the last races as Oracle now being the best boat/team. If we win the start and first mark and we get beaten, then they have overtaken. But I can see us leaving them to it once we get a shot of racing to 5 marks and getting the best wind and the best current over the whole race. If they are even as many say, then the boat losing the start cannot win in an error free race.

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#901351 23-Sep-2013 17:56

networkn: I think it's worth noting, something which didn't occur to me until this very second... ETNZ has won 8 races, but Oracle have won 7!

Without the penalties they got, we would have a SERIOUS problem right now.

Yes. If we don't win any of tomorrows racing, it will end up being a court room race, as Oracle will fight the 2 point penalty.

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