Attempt underway by free spech union to gain infuence in InternetNZ

Forums › ICT Policies and Regulation › Attempt underway by free spech union to gain infuence in InternetNZ

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#3358940 31-Mar-2025 11:05

SaltyNZ:

This is going to veer into Politics any second now ...

I'm actually kind of interested in hearing Mauricio's take on that. If a thread is inherently a crossover of politics and something else as in this case, should / will it always be relegated to the politics forum?

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#3358948 31-Mar-2025 11:28

I think InternetNZ is foremost an ICT Policies topic. But if the discussion itself goes down the politics path instead of discussing the policies, then it will be moved.

decibel

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#3359041 31-Mar-2025 13:56

The proposed changes (a smaller board with appointed members and a focus on Te Tiriti o Waitangi) align with wider governance trends in New Zealand, but the FSU sees them as a threat to democracy.

Sorry, can some one explain how InternetNZ and the Treaty are related?

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#3359045 31-Mar-2025 14:07

decibel:

The proposed changes (a smaller board with appointed members and a focus on Te Tiriti o Waitangi) align with wider governance trends in New Zealand, but the FSU sees them as a threat to democracy.

Sorry, can some one explain how InternetNZ and the Treaty are related?

Ensure you've read https://internetnz.nz/systemic-racism-review/ for starters.

No signature to see here, move along...

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#3359144 31-Mar-2025 16:11

decibel:

Sorry, can some one explain how InternetNZ and the Treaty are related?

The short answer is that 150 years ago some migrants made a deal with the people already living here where they both agreed to share authority to govern, but the people already living here still owned anything they didn't decide to sell. Fast forward 150 years and the people already living here have not agreed to give up the rights they kept 150 years ago, so they are still entitled to a say in how the place is run.

Longer answer: there may come a day when everyone truly has equal opportunities and so the people who were already here are ready to relinquish their right to an independent say in how the place is run, but given they got trampled on by the migrants for 150 years, today is not that day. And therefore in order to get closer to that day, we actively lift them up to get closer to that ideal of true equality.

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#3359150 31-Mar-2025 16:29

BlakJak:

Ensure you've read https://internetnz.nz/systemic-racism-review/ for starters.

Interesting read.

I fairly strongly disagree with the authors take that internet infrastructure being aggressively libertarian is a bad thing, but I do concede that as a middle aged white male libertarian cypherpunk type I may not be entirely neutral.

While it clearly raises historical issues within InternetNZ that need addressing, it's also very narrowly targeted at addressing wrongs done to Maori, possibly due to the authors own advocacies. If InternetNZ is going to restructure itself to address systemic racism, why do so only in a bicultural manner? NZ is a multicultural society now, not a monocultural or bicultural one. My take so far is that there are things that need addressing, but that the proposed "fix" is only addressing part of the problem, and possibly making a worse one.

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#3359263 31-Mar-2025 21:53

I managed to get my new membership sorted before the deadline, but not without a few website gremlins. Still, it was worth watching the livestream of the new INZ constitution getting passed. Come July, the real sh*tfight against the astroturfers begins.

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#3359281 31-Mar-2025 22:55

Handle9:

Do you really think you are accomplishing anything by not saying Maori or British?

Yes, I think it kinda highlights the absurdity of using race/ancestry, ie: something you're born with by chance, have no control over and is a nebulous concept anyway as a criteria for anything.

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#3359282 31-Mar-2025 23:11

BlakJak:

Ensure you've read https://internetnz.nz/systemic-racism-review/ for starters.

According to that an page: an offensive youtube video is why internet nz must fight historical racism with reverse racism / actual racism (ie: race/ancestry based quotas) even though there is probably no current actual racism in how their board is selected/made up?

Logically it makes no sense given the changes reduce the seats available for all other races/ancestries as collateral damage.

Have a look at their actual/current board, what problem are they even solving with these changes?

https://internetnz.nz/governance-and-reports/council/council/

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#3359395 1-Apr-2025 10:20

I guess we'll see how this goes, then?

InternetNZ has the advantage/disadvantage of choosing its own purpose, coupled with the cash firehose of running dot nz. Rather like Mozilla.

I'm used to being part of charities/incorporated societies/... with a strong, narrowly defined purpose, and no cash firehose. Even then, there's internal politics, and contentious pulls in various, often political directions. People getting really angry when you say no to something that is diametrically opposed to the organisation's stated purpose/ethos/kaupapa/... I can imagine how much harder those situations would be, when the winner gets to control where the cash firehose points.

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#3359678 2-Apr-2025 08:11

Ragnor:

Handle9:

Do you really think you are accomplishing anything by not saying Maori or British?

Yes, I think it kinda highlights the absurdity of using race/ancestry, ie: something you're born with by chance, have no control over and is a nebulous concept anyway as a criteria for anything

So slightly less absurd than the equal opportunity falacy or the myth of meritocracy.

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#3359963 3-Apr-2025 00:53

Handle9:

Ragnor:

Handle9:

Do you really think you are accomplishing anything by not saying Maori or British?

Yes, I think it kinda highlights the absurdity of using race/ancestry, ie: something you're born with by chance, have no control over and is a nebulous concept anyway as a criteria for anything

So slightly less absurd than the equal opportunity falacy or the myth of meritocracy.

This meme comes to mind. We're looking at you (not Handle9, but all the ladder-pulling hypocrites out there in their tax-exempt houses bought a generation or 2 ago for 3-4x the average wage).

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#3359968 3-Apr-2025 02:32

deepred:

Handle9:

Ragnor

Yes, I think it kinda highlights the absurdity of using race/ancestry, ie: something you're born with by chance, have no control over and is a nebulous concept anyway as a criteria for anything

So slightly less absurd than the equal opportunity falacy or the myth of meritocracy.

This meme comes to mind. We're looking at you (not Handle9, but all the ladder-pulling hypocrites out there in their tax-exempt houses bought a generation or 2 ago for 3-4x the average wage).

I don’t think it’s ok to appoint people who aren’t suitably qualified to a job. I also think think it’s ok to prefer severely underrepresented people when you are choosing from a group who are qualified.

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#3359993 3-Apr-2025 08:39

Bottom line for me is that while I acknowledge that as a straight white man it can feel racist, sexist or any-other-ist to see these principles set out as rules to be enforced, I recognise that that's how minorities feel all the time when they see at-best-mediocre straight white men in suits getting promoted when there were often plenty of other people who are not straight, white or a man that could have done the job better.

Like OK, it will shock nobody on this forum when I say I am not a fan of the coalition, but the National Party sidelined a couple of women who could have been much better Prime Ministers than Mr. Iusedtorunanairline.

And perhaps if the National Party had such a rule, we might have a much stronger, more capable Prime Minister today.

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#3360398 4-Apr-2025 03:29

SaltyNZ:

Bottom line for me is that while I acknowledge that as a straight white man it can feel racist, sexist or any-other-ist to see these principles set out as rules to be enforced, I recognise that that's how minorities feel all the time when they see at-best-mediocre straight white men in suits getting promoted when there were often plenty of other people who are not straight, white or a man that could have done the job better.

Like OK, it will shock nobody on this forum when I say I am not a fan of the coalition, but the National Party sidelined a couple of women who could have been much better Prime Ministers than Mr. Iusedtorunanairline.

And perhaps if the National Party had such a rule, we might have a much stronger, more capable Prime Minister today.

Not sure how any of that is relevant to the internet nz board, they already have a quite diverse board.

Having quotas for people of only Maori ancestry is also detrimental (reduced opportunity) for people of Polynesian, Asian, Indians, etc ancestry.

Do we need quotas for other ancestries too? What about people that quality for multiple ancestries? Should they be set to match population %?

These type of equality of outcome measures almost always do more harm that good.

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