Phone displays 'Check Phone line' (Fibre + old multi-jack home network)

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Phone displays 'Check Phone line' (Fibre + old multi-jack home network)

td19

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#302845 27-Dec-2022 18:07

I have an older house that we restored around 2000. We installed five jack points in various rooms and it was my understanding that there was a master connection to the copper telecom input and the other jacks were connected to it. This setup worked perfectly.

About five years ago we changed to fibre. For this installation there is a plain white box fixed to the side of the house where the fibre (previously copper) incoming line is terminated. There are two outputs from this box; one is a blue wire that disappears under the house, which I suspects is connected to the previous copper 'master' jack, and the other goes inhone line through the garage to the home office where the ONT is wall-mounted and connected to the Vodafone Ultra Hub. There are two phone connections piggy-backed off Phone 1 on the Ultra Hub, one going to a cordless phone in the home office, the other through an analog line back underground too the master connection in the house. This setup has also worked perfectly until a couple of days ago.

At that point the phones all started to display 'Check TEL line' or 'Check phone line'. All phones were dead.

I called Vodafone Faults who tested quite extensively and were sure that the signal was incoming to the Ultra Hub. As a last resort I connected the office phone, without the accompanying piggy back, directly to the router Phone 1 and was able to confirm dial tone and make/receive calls.

However when i reconnect the piggy back to the house the error message reappears. This means the fault is somewhere in the old copper-based star network between jack points in the house.

I am wondering therefore whether the fault may be in the mysterious white box that has the wire leading under the house to the master connection. And, if this is the case, is it something for Chorus to sort out? i don't understand what this connection does. Can anyone explain how this setup works (I am not a tech but would like to understand how it works)?

nztim

3819 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

TEAMnetwork

Subscriber

#3014427 27-Dec-2022 19:39

you will need someone to make sure the house wiring is connected to your ultra hub , what area are you in?

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

quickymart

13963 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

#3014444 27-Dec-2022 22:03

Integrated wiring not done correctly?

td19

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3014937 29-Dec-2022 09:07

Thanks for the suggestions.

I have now done some some self-education and inspection. The white plastic box on the outside of the house is the original ETP. The old copper line has been cut and the ETP now houses the incoming fibre cable which is connected to thin blue and orange wires and also a thin blue sleeve that protects the fibre line; these are shielded in a white plastic sleeve which runs to the ONT inside.

Internet works fine as does the phone when connected to the Phone 1 port on the Ultra Hub

So it appears that the fault must indeed be in the daisy-chained phone lines that run through the house between jackpoints. There are five of these in the house. What is the best way to test each individual jackpoint to jackpoint? Also, how do I determine which one is the master?

The fault did appear gradually, crackling on the phone during an incoming call on Saturday, and then on Sunday the sound of an open line when one picked up the phone, and the message displayed 'Check Phone/Tel line'.

Any advice very gratefully received! Vodafone tell me to get a sparky in but I would like to sort it myself if possible.

froob

692 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3015055 29-Dec-2022 12:10

What is the wiring arrangement you are using for the piggy-back connection you mention, and have you ruled out a fault with that part of the wiring? If you haven't already, I would try directly connecting the Phone 1 port on the Ultra Hub directly into the House wiring, and try a phone on all the jacks around the house to see if any work.

If that doesn't resolve your issue, to make the job easier you are probably going to want to buy a bit of testing equipment to locate the fault. Ideally, you would have a network cable tester and a toner tool, which you could use to test which jacks were still connected to which, and then disconnect and test individual wires from within the jacks.

Before you go out and buy equipment, you might also open up all of the jacks and visually inspect the wiring to see if any of the wires have popped out of their connectors. If that's the case, you could just get a basic plastic punch-down tool that will fit a phone jack, and reconnect the loose wire. Those tools sometimes come in a pack with a new phone jack.

Otherwise, the most efficient way will be to use a tester and toner to map out the cables between the jacks and narrow down which cable the fault is on. You could then reterminate any connections along the length of the faulty cable (assuming you can access these) or replace that cable with a new one.

Guide: Installing Network Cabling in New Zealand Homes

nztim

3819 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

TEAMnetwork

Subscriber

#3015066 29-Dec-2022 12:33

td19:

Any advice very gratefully received! Vodafone tell me to get a sparky in but I would like to sort it myself if possible.

Or a fellow geekzoner :) where are you based?

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

td19

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3016156 2-Jan-2023 15:10

Some progress, at least in self-education.

1. The phone network in the house has six daisy-chained phone jacks, installed ~ 2000. I think we were told the master socket was in the kitchen. However it has a standard PDL hack module with '2' stamped on the front.

2. All jack points are inter-connected with white and red wires. All wire connections appear to be intact

3. A home office was added at the end of a detached versatile double garage around 2007, with two jack points. One of the jack points was connected to a cable with blue and blue/white wires that ran under the house back to the ETP box at the front of the house.

4. Round about 2012 we went to broadband. This required (from rather hazy memory) that the incoming copper connected to the Vodafone modem and the home phone network ran out from the modem. The modem was located in the home office.

5. The blue-blue white pair from the home office jackpoint are connected with old looking gel connectors to a red-white pair in the ETP; this pair is the start of the daisy chain in the house. I don't know if this connection was done when the HO jack point was initially installed, or alternatively, when the broadband installation was done. It is not clear how the oncoming copper was connected .... possibly also through the old gel connectors in a 'T' configuration if this is possible. The insulation of the white wire, which disappears inside the white outer cable that goes into the house, has been stripped somehow so it is bare wire inside the ETP. Unfortunately there is no slack in the cable going into the house that would allow the red-whie pair to be reterminated with an insulated section. I wonder if this loss of insulation could have anything to do with the line failure.

6. The inside of the jack module on the kitchen appears quite dirty, from cooking effluvia over 20 odd years! I will replace it in the coming week.

At present there is no dial tone from phone connected to any jack point, and the base phone gives message 'Check Phone Line'. However a phone connected directly to the Ultra Hub allows inbound and outbound calls with phone ringing, and I can phone the home landline number.

A couple of questions:

1. The home network starts in the home office and enters the house from the ETP via the blue-blue/white to red-white wiring connection. If the line/connection to the first jack point is OK should I get dial tone? Inother words, if the fault is further along the daisy chain it won't affect any lines before it?

2. All the jack modules are 20+ years old and all have capacitors. Could a faulty capacitor cause this type of problem, and do these capacitors fail? The initial symtoms of the failure were poor sound quality and crackling on the line followed a day later by complete failure.

I'm now determined to solve this ... just hoping I don't have to go up into the roof cavity where all the phone lines run.

nztim

3819 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

TEAMnetwork

Subscriber

#3016294 2-Jan-2023 20:54

1. my guess is that the fault is somewhere down the daisy chain, a continuity tester will confirm this, Also the street should be disconnected.

2. in 2022 the capacitors do nothing, they are used to make phones manufactured prior to 1997 ring, modern phones don’t require it

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

td19

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3016433 3-Jan-2023 14:26

The old copper cable from the street has been cut.

The home office, where the ONT and Ultra Hub are located, has two jack points. One, to which the line from the Phone 1 Ultra Hub socket connects, has two Cat 5 cables connected. One runs to the ETP and the blue/blue-whitee wires are connected to red/white (inside white casing) which run into the house. The second Cat 5 runs to the second jack point in the office and has only the one connection, the incoming one.

There are therefore two 'daisy chains' hanging off the first jack point, one with only one connection. Is there any problem with this? I would expect both chains to be active and have dial tone. However I have connected a phone that I know is OK to the second office jack point and the phone is completely silent, same as phones connected to any of the house jack points. But in this case there is just the single cable run from jack point 1 to jack point 2, both are Cat 5, and both are within the same room. This suggests that the BT socket in jack point 1 may be faulty.

Does this make sense (sorry for the probably dumb questions).

richms

28191 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3016436 3-Jan-2023 14:31

You have a short on one of the cables, so best would be to first off check that all sockets are ok and have no corrosion etc on them, it only takes a tiny amount between pins to short the line out since its low current, if thats ok then start isolating it at various sockets and see when it comes right.

Could also be a staple thru the cable that is only now being a problem.

but TBH, easiest solution is to disconnect it all and get a multi handset cordless phone if a landline is still important to you, or re-evaluate if you need it and do away with it.

Richard rich.ms

td19

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3016441 3-Jan-2023 14:50

Thanks for uber-quick reply.

1. If there is a short on the long daisy chain, would it also affect the connection on the short daisy chain?

2. I have tested continuity between between each of the two pins on the male RJ11 that goes into Phone 1, and the blue and blue/white forks on the BT module. I have continuity to the blue/white forks from one pin, but no continuity from the other pin to the blue forks. It is a bit tricky testing as the probes on the multi are too big for the task but I think I have checked it OK.

I agree totally re cordless etc. Unfortunately I have a luddite wife who likes to use a corded handset for international calls (!!). Also, the cordless base probably needs to be in the house and therefore have the wired connection. I have not tested if if the base station could be located in the detached home office and transmit successfully to all rooms in the house.

PolicyGuy

1727 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Lifetime subscriber

#3016442 3-Jan-2023 14:52

richms:

but TBH, easiest solution is to disconnect it all and get a multi handset cordless phone if a landline is still important to you, or re-evaluate if you need it and do away with it.

This

If you valued your time at say $20/hr, you would have for sure already paid for a three-handset cordless phone system

richms

28191 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3016444 3-Jan-2023 15:08

A short anywhere will take the line out of action for anything that is on it. If something has got wet then over a short time the DC voltage will make it corrode into a more conductive mess that will then pass enough current to make the line appear to be off hook.

The range on dect can be a lot more than you expect, and there are some repeaters available for ones like the unidens if you need it.

Otherwise get disconnecting the cables at each socket and getting a multimeter on it and check for the voltage coming back when you disconnect one of them. There is always the chance that the cable that is damages is one that you cant get to and its had a nail or something thru it since new and only just now had the problem. What will you do if that happens? The dect system is a sure fire way to get phones working and not reliant on already questionable looking cabling.

Richard rich.ms

SomeoneSomewhere

1804 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3016555 3-Jan-2023 17:28

td19:

Some progress, at least in self-education.

1. The phone network in the house has six daisy-chained phone jacks, installed ~ 2000. I think we were told the master socket was in the kitchen. However it has a standard PDL hack module with '2' stamped on the front.

2. All jack points are inter-connected with white and red wires. All wire connections appear to be intact

3. A home office was added at the end of a detached versatile double garage around 2007, with two jack points. One of the jack points was connected to a cable with blue and blue/white wires that ran under the house back to the ETP box at the front of the house.

4. Round about 2012 we went to broadband. This required (from rather hazy memory) that the incoming copper connected to the Vodafone modem and the home phone network ran out from the modem. The modem was located in the home office.

5. The blue-blue white pair from the home office jackpoint are connected with old looking gel connectors to a red-white pair in the ETP; this pair is the start of the daisy chain in the house. I don't know if this connection was done when the HO jack point was initially installed, or alternatively, when the broadband installation was done. It is not clear how the oncoming copper was connected .... possibly also through the old gel connectors in a 'T' configuration if this is possible. The insulation of the white wire, which disappears inside the white outer cable that goes into the house, has been stripped somehow so it is bare wire inside the ETP. Unfortunately there is no slack in the cable going into the house that would allow the red-whie pair to be reterminated with an insulated section. I wonder if this loss of insulation could have anything to do with the line failure.

6. The inside of the jack module on the kitchen appears quite dirty, from cooking effluvia over 20 odd years! I will replace it in the coming week.

At present there is no dial tone from phone connected to any jack point, and the base phone gives message 'Check Phone Line'. However a phone connected directly to the Ultra Hub allows inbound and outbound calls with phone ringing, and I can phone the home landline number.

A couple of questions:

1. The home network starts in the home office and enters the house from the ETP via the blue-blue/white to red-white wiring connection. If the line/connection to the first jack point is OK should I get dial tone? Inother words, if the fault is further along the daisy chain it won't affect any lines before it?

2. All the jack modules are 20+ years old and all have capacitors. Could a faulty capacitor cause this type of problem, and do these capacitors fail? The initial symtoms of the failure were poor sound quality and crackling on the line followed a day later by complete failure.

I'm now determined to solve this ... just hoping I don't have to go up into the roof cavity where all the phone lines run.

Old school phone wiring is pretty resilient. Daisy, star, doesn't matter. All that matters is each device is connected to both wires from the source (there are no breaks between the source and the device), and there are no shorts between the two wires. A short will take out the whole system. You can even swap the two wires and most phones work fine

That ETP with the bare wires looks really suspect.

You don't have to use the same wire colours everywhere; if you can't get more length on that pair to reterminate, consider using another pair from the ETP to wherever the next point on that white sheathed cable is. I forget what the colour codes were for old-school phone cable but even if you don't grab wires within the same pair it'll probably work fine. Some googling says it might be blue/green for pair two.

It also looks like you're using white & brown, not white & red, but that might just be a camera issue.

nztim

3819 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

TEAMnetwork

Subscriber

#3016760 4-Jan-2023 11:45

Seriously just get a sparky or a trusted GZ member in your area to fix this

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

td19

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#3032235 5-Feb-2023 15:56

Managed to fix it. The problem was with the white/red pair entering the house. I think the insulation must have perished further inside the cable and been shorting there.

With the help of my RJ11/45 tester I proved that all the jacks in the house were connected and also the pair of jacks in the office. Identified the jack point in the house that is the first connection and then used a different wire pair, hopefully without perished insulation, to connect.

All working fine now, with all jack points active.

Possibly rather a fruitless exercise, but we did want to have the base station with answerphone in the house, and it was satisfying to solve it.

Thanks to everyone for advice.