VDSL - where is demarc / who is responsible for what?

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davidgo2

46 posts

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#311612 1-Feb-2024 08:55

Apologies if this has been asked before - my google-foo seems to be quite weak and I can't find an answer.

I am stuck with a VDSL connection. The Copper line runs from a cabine to a pole on the street outside my house, and then a fair distance (50 - 100 meters?) through a padock which is part of my property and into my house. There is a black cable (presumably grease filled) which terminates INSIDE my house near the front door, from where it is joined and runs to my modem.

Who is responsible for [paying for] problems related to the cable running between the house and the pole on the road?

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#3189095 1-Feb-2024 09:05

Demarc is normally either the first jackpoint where that black cable ends (as in your case) or the obvious external termination point on the outside of the building where the join between internal and external cable happens.

nztim

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#3189098 1-Feb-2024 09:10

Chorus is responsible to the entry point in at the side of the house (the white telecom box)

If there is no demarcation box then I guess it will be the end of that black cable?

@wheelbarrow01 is probably best to answer this

What has happened?

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

davidgo2

46 posts

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#3189101 1-Feb-2024 09:20

@NZTIM - thank you for your reply. I do hope @wheelbarrow01 chimes in as well!

My connection speed suddenly dropped 10-20% (Upload line sync went from 10 megabit to 6.5 megabit - and then after the Chorus technicians came back up to 8 megabit. My download speeds have dropped from 50 megabit to 46 megabit) The problem is likely in the cable between my house and the pole - and I'm about to have a fight with Chorus because they are saying the new load speed is the maximum that can be attained! Assuming that the cable needs to be replaced to get my speeds up I'm wondering who is responsible for the cost of digging up the line.

nztim

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#3189105 1-Feb-2024 09:39

davidgo2:

@NZTIM - thank you for your reply. I do hope @wheelbarrow01 chimes in as well!

My connection speed suddenly dropped 10-20% (Upload line sync went from 10 megabit to 6.5 megabit - and then after the Chorus technicians came back up to 8 megabit. My download speeds have dropped from 50 megabit to 46 megabit) The problem is likely in the cable between my house and the pole - and I'm about to have a fight with Chorus because they are saying the new load speed is the maximum that can be attained! Assuming that the cable needs to be replaced to get my speeds up I'm wondering who is responsible for the cost of digging up the line.

Have you disconnected the other Jack points so that the cable goes to a single jack point only?

That thick cable also doesn't punch down onto the jack points directly very well so could be a dodgy joint there.

Also have you tried another router?

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

davidgo2

46 posts

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#3189111 1-Feb-2024 09:49

nztim:

Have you disconnected the other Jack points so that the cable goes to a single jack point only?

That thick cable also doesn't punch down onto the jack points directly very well so could be a dodgy joint there.

Also have you tried another router?

Thank you for the thought. I have indeed tried another router to no avail, and there are no dodgy joints at the connection to the house - The Chorus technicians had the same kind of results connecting directly to the incoming line. (Also, there are no phone jacks wired up - it goes to the house, then onto cat5e/cat6 and to the modem. I have every reason to believe the problem is a combination of water ingress in the black cable and lack of proper maintenance/repair work on the cable between the cabinet and our property.

nztim

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#3189118 1-Feb-2024 10:01

davidgo2:

Thank you for the thought. I have indeed tried another router to no avail, and there are no dodgy joints at the connection to the house - The Chorus technicians had the same kind of results connecting directly to the incoming line. (Also, there are no phone jacks wired up - it goes to the house, then onto cat5e/cat6 and to the modem. I have every reason to believe the problem is a combination of water ingress in the black cable and lack of proper maintenance/repair work on the cable between the cabinet and our property.

Okay so the point where the cable changes from black stuff to cat5/cat6 is where responsibility ends.

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

RunningMan

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#3189208 1-Feb-2024 11:43

davidgo2:

speed suddenly dropped 10-20% Upload line sync went from 10 megabit to 6.5 megabit - and then after the Chorus technicians came back up to 8 megabit. My download speeds have dropped from 50 megabit to 46 megabit)

This is still a respectable VDSL sync rate, and unless there is significant instability on the line I don't expect Chorus will see this as a fault.

The nature of xDSL is that sync rates are variable, and will be influenced by external sources/interference as well as crosstalk from other connections in the same feeder. The recently rectified fault will also make DDLM pull the sync rate back until the line seems stable, then it may increase.

So, doesn't actually look like a fault (Chorus fixed it already). Just wait, the old sync rate may return if you are lucky.

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Bung

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#3189215 1-Feb-2024 11:59

davidgo2: I have every reason to believe the problem is a combination of water ingress in the black cable and lack of proper maintenance/repair work on the cable between the cabinet and our property.

Just as a thought, there no chance that temporary electric fence standards could have knicked the buried cable in the paddock is there?

Wheelbarrow01

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Chorus

#3189216 1-Feb-2024 11:59

RunningMan:

davidgo2:

speed suddenly dropped 10-20% Upload line sync went from 10 megabit to 6.5 megabit - and then after the Chorus technicians came back up to 8 megabit. My download speeds have dropped from 50 megabit to 46 megabit)

This is still a respectable VDSL sync rate, and unless there is significant instability on the line I don't expect Chorus will see this as a fault.

The nature of xDSL is that sync rates are variable, and will be influenced by external sources/interference as well as crosstalk from other connections in the same feeder. The recently rectified fault will also make DDLM pull the sync rate back until the line seems stable, then it may increase.

So, doesn't actually look like a fault (Chorus fixed it already). Just wait, the old sync rate may return if you are lucky.

Thanks @RunningMan,

You've pretty much summed up all that I was going to say. There's no way to ascertain that the cable on the property is to blame for the reduced speed - there are a number of external factors that affect line speeds, most of which cannot be controlled which is why VDSL a best efforts service. Chorus would likely not commit to replacing a cable in such circumstances as there is no guarantee that such an investment would provide any discernable improvement.

The changes made as a result of the fault technician visit that has already occured mean that the vectoring and DLM settings will go through their cycles to try and find the optimum sync rate again over the coming days.

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

richms

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#3189221 1-Feb-2024 12:11

Seems like its still working fine. This is why copper internet sucks, its varied on attenuation and cable noise which means that you will see changes of performance that are still working fine as cables are aging, worked on, other cables in the bundle become used or disused etc. DLM may bring it back but really there is no fault unless it is dropping out or having massive error counts which your modems stats will show you.

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snj

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#3189224 1-Feb-2024 12:31

One thing I'll add is that I've found it highly dependable on exactly which Chorus tech actually gets assigned a VDSL job these days.

Personally, I've been having issues since March last year after the line dropped and speeds went down to about 25% of original, and disconnects during bad weather, when I finally got around to reporting it, had several times when Chorus claimed to have done work on the line but no contact/etc nor improvement. Even had Chorus directly say they had no record of speeds that had been attainable for 3 years prior (i.e. since the last main changes to VDSL profiles).

Eventually Chorus sent someone that claimed to be one of the expert technicians and he didn't even know what G.Vector was (it got disabled at one point during the faults and to this day never got re enabled), when the drops started occurring again they sent someone else and they actually worked on the line for over an hour and magically things were mostly back to historic rates/etc.

Even though the line still drops unacceptably regularly (easily averaging over 2x/day over a month), I've sort of given up/grinned and beared it in fear of it getting worse again.

MichaelNZ

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#3210847 25-Mar-2024 22:16

davidgo2:

My connection speed suddenly dropped 10-20% (Upload line sync went from 10 megabit to 6.5 megabit - and then after the Chorus technicians came back up to 8 megabit. My download speeds have dropped from 50 megabit to 46 megabit)

The demarc is the box on the side of your house, however, you are likely liable to pay for anything on your property.

davidgo2:

and I'm about to have a fight with Chorus because they are saying the new load speed is the maximum that can be attained!

You can't have a "fight" with Chorus because you have no agreement with them. Furthermore, the numbers you are getting are considerably within spec so I don't see a case.

We have clients who are on sub-10Mbps speeds due to their locations. I try and connect them with VDSL wherever possible because the protocol is better but this does not always mean much if any extra speed.

I live in a rural area and have had >70Mbps down and >20Mbps up. But that was years ago. These days I get more like 60/17. Its the nature of the beast.

Filters and loose RJ11 connections are known sources of problems. A DV130 modem (or newer) running latest firmware is the gold standard for VDSL. It could be various things or it could be nothing. Its quite normal for VDSL to show variations of the numbers you state.

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Bung

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#3210858 25-Mar-2024 23:23

MichaelNZ:
The demarc is the box on the side of your house, however, you are likely liable to pay for anything on your property.

Even on your property up to the demarc it is Chorus network. You should only be liable if you caused the network fault by digging up the cable for instance. You are liable for faults in the wiring on your side of the demarc.

RunningMan

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#3210864 26-Mar-2024 06:56

MichaelNZ:

The demarc is the box on the side of your house, however, you are likely liable to pay for anything on your property.

This thread is a couple of months old now, but the demarc in this case is the first jackpoint where the incoming cable terminates, not external. This is often the case in older (pre 1980s ish) buildings.

snnet

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#3211726 28-Mar-2024 00:09

The reality is the days of them covering the line coming in are gone. My brother had unusable service for a very long time where I would come out and do what I could to get a working pair, and it was still terrible. Landline unusable (no cell reception). Chorus came out a final time and said they would bill for the cable run to the house so I did it all instead. This was a line that had no internet for about 2 months at the end and a very very noisy landline for a good year. They were paying wiring and maintenance to Spark at the time too. I've encountered many more cases of this both before and after doing the work in my job.

After the new run they've had stable service since (probably been 18 months since I fixed it) - though the infrastructure where they are does not compete with 48Mbit (nor VDSL for that matter)

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