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646 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Topic # 13602 19-May-2007 14:51
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Hey, i have been approached by countless rural and city clients who want cellular amplifiers for their cars, boats and trucks and also static sites etc.

I have done a tonne of net surfing pricing and research on whats available but have been told by TNZ that they want them nor will allow them on the network and only they will install amplifiers (in other words highly unlikely)

I know EDAC and others have sold 3w boosters to fishing boats and boaties etc in NZ but as far as amplifiers go i don't know if any one is selling them?

I am sure the principals of Physics and the CDMA/EVDO networks are no different bar investment in NZ as in the US so i cant see any reason for not being able to sell and use these amplifiers.

Does anybody have any experience with this stuff and or are using in now? good opportunity especial with mobile data going through the roof now the pricing is better and realistic.





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BDFL - Memuneh
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Reply # 71295 19-May-2007 15:25
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Amplifiers can cause lots of problems - and remember they can't legally use the spectrum because it's licensed to the mobile operator. Anyone using that spectrum would be interfering with telecommunications and liable for that...







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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 71300 19-May-2007 16:13
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Ok so its a NZ issue, these types kit are sold by multiple suppliers in the states etc so obviously it's a local issue.





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Master Geek
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  Reply # 71301 19-May-2007 16:43
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TNZ tend to be very strict with amplifiers within the spectrum covered by their management rights. When you consider that all CDMA/EVDO sites in their network share a set of common frequencies, one badly configured amplifier has the potential to do a huge amount of harm to the service of the surrounding mobile users.

However don't be scared off from using devices that incorporate "passive" gain - a good example is connecting a handset to a car-kit with extenally mounted antenna. The antenna "gain" isn't really gain in the traditional sense, as it arises from the focusing of the radio waves in specific directions.



646 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 71317 19-May-2007 19:50
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Ok thats cool, i have plenty of yagi high gain or Passive installs but with direct connection only. This is fine for mobile data connections, brilliant actually but for handsets its a pain unless you use a WLL device with a cordless phone

I understand a 3w booster is in PTC but still has not been approved


I know there a lot of boosters out there right now but not amplifiers, its interesting how the US market with both Sprint and Verizon is a lot less stringent with this stuff yet there networks serve alot larger population

I guess if they are incorrectly set up they could pose a problem. I have had limited success in getting TNZ to install repeaters in obvious high value sites, simply the engineering guys put the cogwash on it yet when i have discussed with Lucent they have said it shouldnt be a prob but prefer to know where they are.

From experince the TNZ engineering guys know best contery to what RF specialists and Lucent techs say, alot like Cell site placement. But thats another story

Using a low cost but quality amplifier and repeater solution could solve alot of the issues TNZ have in rural and buildings and areas where new businesses and developments are going in. The solutions i have seen that have been approved are in the $70k price range and really thats way too much, any wonder they hard to get approved.

Pain is Vodafone dealers have repeater solutions on GSM i have heard of similar solutions for UMTS now






www.ultimatebroadband.co.nz 
Delivering better broadband services

UFB fibre, Rural fibre on EA networks, RBI wireless, Ruralnet & Ultra wireless, wireless networks


131 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 71398 20-May-2007 15:28
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"Pain is Vodafone dealers have repeater solutions on GSM i have heard of similar solutions for UMTS now"

I have heard through the grapevine that Vodafone have deployed a large number of mini-repeaters throughout their network, but their engineering teams don't have full visibility of where they have been used. IF this is true it is going to be a major headache when/if they roll out 900 MHz UMTS, as UMTS has similar issues with repeaters.

"From experince the TNZ engineering guys know best contery to what RF specialists and Lucent techs say, alot like Cell site placement. But thats another story"

Maybe the subject of another thread? I should mention that I work at Lucent (now Alcatel-Lucent), but always interested to hear tales "from the other side of the fence"



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 71453 21-May-2007 09:58
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thanks for that, i wondered if the same issues would be there with the UMTS network especially the to be released 900mhz network.

In the past when i have had experiences with new site deployment and or coverage issues, when i have talked to the odd Alcatel Lucent person and some one from TNZ we get slightly different stories. I know when installing the new CDMA network back  a few years Lucent suggested they put in extra sites to give the best in fill and density coverage to match the specs of a properly setup CDMA network, but TNZ decided to pinch pennys and do it with out those extra sites and low and behold TNZ had to play catch up for a long time as the CDMA network foot print was not adequate compared to analogue and TDMA for some time. The experience from that excercise is only now being rectified in the rural and city outskirts with the large site build program going on right now.

So i guess my question remains, how do providors deal with amplifiers and boosters and repeaters on there networks overseas, Sprint, Verizon etc and the WCDMA networks in the States have approved for sale and use on their networks all of the wilson range and several others that can be installed with only limited RF knowledge in a vehicle or static site?

I understand the ownership of frequency issues that was mentioned earlier in this thread, but if these types of systems are installed and in use with out engineers knowing the location through out the states, how much of a real effect could they have in NZ on TNZ and or VNZ networks?? Obviously the Telcos either don't care or the units them selves are smart enough not to overload and cause issues to the network?





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Delivering better broadband services

UFB fibre, Rural fibre on EA networks, RBI wireless, Ruralnet & Ultra wireless, wireless networks


131 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 71535 21-May-2007 18:47
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"how much of a real effect could they have in NZ on TNZ and or VNZ networks??"

Good question.
If we ignore, for the sake of discussion, the possiblity of faulty or badly-installed repeaters that oscillate and effectively "jam" the surrounding network, then there is at least one other major reason for the CDMA/UMTS operators to *at least* have visibility of the repeaters deployed out in the field. Each operational repeater has a small negative effect of the uplink sensitivity of the donor site (the site that is providing the RF signal for the repeater to amplify). When there are a large number of repeaters working off the same donor site, this site suffers reduced coverage footprint in a noticable way. As with all good things moderation is the key :)

One of the nice things I've seen on the technology horizon is the idea of "pico"-cells, where the customer installs a *very* low power basestation in their home/premises, in a similar manner to a W-LAN access point. This takes the place of the traditional repeater, and provides improved coverage - without adversely effecting the surrounding network.



646 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 71557 21-May-2007 20:23
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Ok, i have heard of these types of units.

What do they cost or is that not available. In alot of areas these could seriously improve the performance of the networks in rural and high density areas.

Sounds good, will do some research. Are these already in place in NZ





www.ultimatebroadband.co.nz 
Delivering better broadband services

UFB fibre, Rural fibre on EA networks, RBI wireless, Ruralnet & Ultra wireless, wireless networks




646 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 73720 6-Jun-2007 23:18
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Seems the ministry of economic development have a major say in this, not Telecom which i was lead to believe. Several boosters were in for PTT, would have passed that test and limited numbers could have been sold, however MED officals have said no and Telecom have gone no further.

Anything that can cause radio interferrence in NZ is covered by this dept or a similar Govt dept. Its not allowed!

So if you are lucky enough to have a CDMA booster then you are really lucky.





www.ultimatebroadband.co.nz 
Delivering better broadband services

UFB fibre, Rural fibre on EA networks, RBI wireless, Ruralnet & Ultra wireless, wireless networks


BDFL - Memuneh
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Reply # 73763 7-Jun-2007 10:20
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mjsit&t: So if you are lucky enough to have a CDMA booster then you are really lucky.


Or on the other side of the law.







646 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 73781 7-Jun-2007 11:00
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freitasm:
mjsit&t: So if you are lucky enough to have a CDMA booster then you are really lucky.


Or on the other side of the law.



Well that too!!





www.ultimatebroadband.co.nz 
Delivering better broadband services

UFB fibre, Rural fibre on EA networks, RBI wireless, Ruralnet & Ultra wireless, wireless networks


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