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639 posts

Ultimate Geek


#233851 6-May-2018 16:29
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So I purchased a iPhone from facebook... got blacklisted after just over a month...

 

unpaid contract plan I assume.

 

I'm not super worried, I already purchased another phone so just trying to recoup costs for this one.

 

 

 

But what are my options here?

 

Does the NZ Blacklist carry onto overseas as well? .. Can I sell it to a friend overseas and they will have no issue?

 

Disputes Tribunal is another option, only $40

 

 

 

Its strange. the TCF website currently lists it as blacklisted but it still works fine on 2degrees until it roams to vodafone then its dead till I Airplane ON/OFF, So either 2degrees is slow at updating their blacklist or its only blocked on Vodafone.

 

The person at 2degrees told me that if its blocked due to no payment its only on the original network but I don't believe this to be correct?

 

This sort of thing happens but its frustrating the networks use the blacklist for this purpose when there is zero way to check this at purchase time. Why cant they add a list to the TCF site that says "This phone is under contract."


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4771 posts

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  #2008783 6-May-2018 16:39
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>So I purchased a iPhone from facebook... got blacklisted after just over a month... unpaid contract plan I assume.

 

>......... Can I sell it to a friend overseas and they will have no issue?

 

I am fairly sure that the original T+Cs of the contract the phone was on will give the carrier some sort of legal interest in the phone, from a legal standpoint I am faitly sure this is not extinguished by any "on selling"

 

While it sucks that you have been ripped off by the facebook seller you should contact the police about it,not implict further issues on another....

 

Doing the exact same thing to a "friend" overseas does not sound like something that I would expect a friend to do....

 

 




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Ultimate Geek


  #2008784 6-May-2018 16:42
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wellygary:

 

>So I purchased a iPhone from facebook... got blacklisted after just over a month... unpaid contract plan I assume.

 

>......... Can I sell it to a friend overseas and they will have no issue?

 

I am fairly sure that the original T+Cs of the contract the phone was on will give the carrier some sort of legal interest in the phone, from a legal standpoint I am faitly sure this is not extinguished by any "on selling"

 

While it sucks that you have been ripped off by the facebook seller you should contact the police about it,not implict further issues on another....

 

Doing the exact same thing to a "friend" overseas does not sound like something that I would expect a friend to do....

 

 

 

 

I would only to a friend overseas if it was confirmed to be NZ only and I would fully disclosure this to them


 
 
 
 


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  #2008785 6-May-2018 16:43
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Hi yes since we contribute to the GSMA Blacklist, it will get blacklisted by overseas carriers who participate.  It will also eventually get blacklisted by 2degrees as all carriers in NZ participate in the GSMA blacklisting database.

 

 


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  #2008792 6-May-2018 16:54
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A bit off topic but I don't understand buying things on Facebook where there's no trust or verification for sellers. Having said that I wouldn't buy a mobile phone on Trade Me neither.





 

 

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  #2008804 6-May-2018 17:03
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skewt:[snip]unpaid contract plan I assume.

 

 

More likely stolen.




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  #2008869 6-May-2018 18:51
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RunningMan:

 

skewt:[snip]unpaid contract plan I assume.

 

 

More likely stolen.

 

 

 

 

was an unopened box from an 'unwanted gift'

 

 

 

I'm not too worried.. I picked it up from the guys house and his FB profile contains enough information so I have all his details


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  #2008877 6-May-2018 19:11
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I would file a police complaint

John

 
 
 
 


'That VDSL Cat'
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  #2008885 6-May-2018 19:28
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File a complaint with the police indeed.

 

 

 

regardless of what happened to the phone, be it unpaid or the more likely; stolen. the device was still sold under false pretenses and they profited off you by doing so.

 

The way the system is abused to onsell devices that will later be blocked is such a horrible situation...





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Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

 




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Ultimate Geek


  #2008891 6-May-2018 19:46
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Will goto Police tomorrow

 

 

 

 


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  #2008954 7-May-2018 01:07

Assuming that the Police say that the phone is not stolen. Check if the phone is listed on the Personal Property Securities register. If not then I would be demanding that the Telco be removing the IMEI block. As they sold the phone "unsecured" And it is their problem that the person they originally provided the phone to, hasn't kept to their side of the contract. If the Telco says that it is under a payment plan, ask them why they didn't put it on the PPSR, as that is what it is for.

There is also this article https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11944268 Which pretty much says that if you have lawful possession of something, for all intents and purposes you are the rightful owner of it.

Since you paid money, and the seller happily handed possession of the phone to you. You are definitely lawfully possessing it. Check the PPSR.

Also read https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=42&topicid=225776&page_no=3







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Ultimate Geek


  #2009007 7-May-2018 09:33
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Aredwood: Assuming that the Police say that the phone is not stolen. Check if the phone is listed on the Personal Property Securities register. If not then I would be demanding that the Telco be removing the IMEI block. As they sold the phone "unsecured" And it is their problem that the person they originally provided the phone to, hasn't kept to their side of the contract. If the Telco says that it is under a payment plan, ask them why they didn't put it on the PPSR, as that is what it is for.

There is also this article https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11944268 Which pretty much says that if you have lawful possession of something, for all intents and purposes you are the rightful owner of it.

Since you paid money, and the seller happily handed possession of the phone to you. You are definitely lawfully possessing it. Check the PPSR.....

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

Cheers, thats great advice and will follow that up

 

I don't know who the original telco was, 2degrees told me they couldn't see who added it to the blacklist

 

 

 

(I couldn't quote your post as geekzone kept saying I didnt have the correct tags)


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  #2009037 7-May-2018 09:46
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I started a blog post about this very issue last year.. In light of the continual posts on here  about this very issue think I should get around to finishing it!

 

In my view telcos are adding devices to the TCF blacklist in breach of the voluntary guidelines for the use of this service - Section 5.3 of the TCF blacklisting code says

 

Blacklisting cannot be used to withhold service or resolve commercial disputes (including bad debt scenarios)

 

 

Using the blacklist to enforce a debt is not compliant with the voluntary policy for use of the service. As mentioned above the Personal Property Securities register is the official place where interests against property should be be lodged.

 

If I were you I'd also contact the TCF and ask why your handset is on their register if it's not lost or stolen - and only blocked because of a bad debt.

 

 




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Ultimate Geek


  #2009750 8-May-2018 09:56
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sbiddle:

 

I started a blog post about this very issue last year.. In light of the continual posts on here  about this very issue think I should get around to finishing it!

 

In my view telcos are adding devices to the TCF blacklist in breach of the voluntary guidelines for the use of this service - Section 5.3 of the TCF blacklisting code says

 

Blacklisting cannot be used to withhold service or resolve commercial disputes (including bad debt scenarios)

 

 

Using the blacklist to enforce a debt is not compliant with the voluntary policy for use of the service. As mentioned above the Personal Property Securities register is the official place where interests against property should be be lodged.

 

If I were you I'd also contact the TCF and ask why your handset is on their register if it's not lost or stolen - and only blocked because of a bad debt.

 

 

 

 

I agree that they should not be adding devices to the blacklist because they didn't perform due diligence on the original buyer

 

I have looked into the code and I assume they are flagging it as fraud but will call the TCF 

 

Before an IMEI can be added to the IMEI Database under the category of Fraud a case must satisfy
the burden of proof and the following must apply:
a) There must be documentary and/or other evidence which prima facie supports the
allegation of fraud; and,
b) There must be sufficient evidence to lay a Police complaint, though Code Signatories may
choose when they will or won’t lay a Police complaint


'That VDSL Cat'
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  #2009778 8-May-2018 10:24
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sbiddle:

 

In my view telcos are adding devices to the TCF blacklist in breach of the voluntary guidelines for the use of this service - Section 5.3 of the TCF blacklisting code says

 

 

The code is so akwardly written currently..

 

the fine line between fraud rather than lack of payment is very iffy.





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

 




639 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2015913 14-May-2018 16:22
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Just an Update on this...

 

1, Checking the PPSR isn't any good as you cant search by an IMEI. Searching by name isn't always an option. I believe the TCF could offer a secondary database where if you search for an IMEI that is on contract it should display "This phone is currently on contract" - may save many in the resale market but I doubt the telcos could come together on this.

 

2, Talked to the TCF who informed me that after checking with the provider the phone was blacklisted correctly under fraud as "The handset in question was received in line with a 24 month access contract. The phone has never been used in association with that contract and therefore has been fraudulently obtained."

 

3, Talked to the Spark fraud team and forwarded all my details about the person to them, they said I should contact police

 

4, Went to the Police and they are filing a incident for "Obtain By Deception" they now have possession of the phone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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