EVDO / 1X Data Pricing

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tonyhughes

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#4216 15-Jun-2005 08:32

From a discussion about flat rate data in another thread.

What about flat rate data during "off peak" times ?? would that be a little more sustainable?

How much $$ would you pony up for real flat rate 24/7 ?? $80? $200?

What reasonable limits could you expect? Throttles after 10GB? Being dumped off the network when it was needed for a voice call to get through??

Would your habits change much with flat rate mobile broadband? Or just more of what you do now becuase you wont be scared of a big bill?

cokemaster

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#15663 15-Jun-2005 11:47

$80 sounds good. 10gb would be extremely nice with it capped to GPRS speeds after its exceeded.

I'd also dump the user off data when making voice calls as well.

At the moment I don't have a landline per say, just my cell and a building ext. Probably would switch all my calling to the cell (I already don't have a landline per say, just an extenstion on a PABX in this building which indirectly connects out).

Although as Jama pointed out, this would rape telecoms ADSL if they did this. Only two networks here so I doubt the little competition between them would even get data that cheap (Although sometimes I suspect price fixing is in order).

Without any 'flat rate', I'm really paranoid about data usage thus will only use GPRS open internet maybe once a week to ssh to one of my servers. I use the voda live portal a lot because I don't need to worry about data though and I have signed up for things like the news and weather.

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#15669 15-Jun-2005 12:39

Nothing to do with price fixing just Return on Investment. Telecom have spent $300M on CDMA and Voda $400M on UMTS.

That is a $700M investment for 4 million people. Mobile is too limited a resource (radio, capacity, etc) to go and do 'all you can eat' so some spotty kid can hammer 30GB p/month over mobile. And there is the point UMTS/CDMA are MOBILE networks. If you want to sit in a darkened room downloading porn get ADSL. Voice is still the killer app and imagine how annoyed customers would be if they can't make phone calls!

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#15671 15-Jun-2005 15:45

Regardless of flat rate or not, is it feasable to drop data calls to ensure voice gets through?

sbiddle

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#15672 15-Jun-2005 16:19

Mobile networks around the world however see the future as being a mobile world with nobody having landlines. If this is to happen they need to accept that data is part of this world.

At the moment mobile data is still going through the phase the internet was 10 years ago and most mobile networks are still aiming their data products at a limited market, the big question they need to answer is whether they actually want to increase that market or are happy with their current returns and strategy. Telecom are the ones in the position to truely offer customers a complete alternative to a fixed line but I believe they simply don't want to offer this.

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#15678 15-Jun-2005 17:52

For Telecom, there is no reason to. As long is there is copper in the ground making the sort of money it is now, they will never want to.

The ones who are in a position to do it are Vodafone. Global company, huge resources, and no landline infrastructure. Now -thats- a company who is logically in the best position to pull off a full landline replacement. They wouldnt be cannibalising a single one of their own services by doing so.

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#15679 15-Jun-2005 18:12

sbiddle you seem to think that the market is limited. There are actually thousands and thousands of New Zealanders currently using mobile data on a regular basis with Terabytes of data sent over mobile. Its not about surfing the internet mobile is about freedom to go beyond surfing, think: Telemetry, EFT-POS, ATM's, AVL, Fixed Wireless, security monitoring, field/sales force automation, etc, etc, etc and email.

You have to stop thinking 'internet', that is not the market (except may be for you) the biggest opportunity for mobile over the next 5 years is M2M (Machine 2 Machine) or telemetry. Machines out number people 4 to 1 and automating machines with mobile data is by far a much bigger market that the odd web surfing, file sharing, geek. Most M2M services do not go near the internet they run over private WWAN networks.

This is the problem with Geekzone you guys are all so inwardly focused on picking the fluff out of your navels that you don't even realise that there is a data world beyond the internet.

That is absolutely bollocks to say that mobile is where 'the internet was 10 years ago'. M2M is growing at a phenomenal rate with the market estimated to worth US$25b by 2008.

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#15680 15-Jun-2005 18:53

I agree with most of what you have been saying since I arrived here, but where did this little gem come from?......

"This is the problem with Geekzone you guys are all so inwardly focused on picking the fluff out of your navels that you don't even realise that there is a data world beyond the internet."

Isnt Geekzone all about mobile devices, phones, palms, pdas etc etc. Which is where the focus is deliberatley pointed?

I pick fluff out of my navel about once a week (I only have one shirt that leaves fluff these days).

Jama - what do you think is a fair price for flat rate data in New Zealand?
(There -has- to be a point at which it is economical, whether that be $80 a month or $800 a month). Regardless of whether its a man or a machine on each end...

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freitasm

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#15681 15-Jun-2005 19:23

sbiddle: Mobile networks around the world however see the future as being a mobile world with nobody having landlines. If this is to happen they need to accept that data is part of this world.

At the moment mobile data is still going through the phase the internet was 10 years ago and most mobile networks are still aiming their data products at a limited market, the big question they need to answer is whether they actually want to increase that market or are happy with their current returns and strategy. Telecom are the ones in the position to truely offer customers a complete alternative to a fixed line but I believe they simply don't want to offer this.

During the Wellington Convergence 2005 Telecom CTO talked about the time where fixed and landline could be used together - he quoted the Bluephone project being conducted by British Telecom (here and here).

That's where I see fixed and mobile telephony coming together.

As for data, really, browsing the web is just one of the activities users can do when connected to an IP network. As Jama says, M2M is huge, and there are lots of things behind the scenes that people don't see.

Jama: This is the problem with Geekzone you guys are all so inwardly focused on picking the fluff out of your navels that you don't even realise that there is a data world beyond the internet.

What? You see this as a problem with Geekzone, or how individual users perceive the mobile world? It's just that like in every group, participants will try to bring the cake to their side of the table. That's what happens here.

Mind you we (the team, er, myself at the moment) try to be quite open and accept all sorts of comments and ideas. It seemed to have worked, and I've seem some good critic on both Vodafone and Telecom operations. Some were taken on board by TNZ and Vodafone people, some not. But people come here to talk about their perceptions and try to find solutions.

They also bring ideas. The idea of flat rate is not entirely out of this world. The question is correct: what is the level where this is viable for the telco? How much consumers want to pay for it?

It doesn't mean people want impossible things. They just want to know.

freitasm

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#15683 15-Jun-2005 21:18

Ah! As I finished writing the previous post I published the announcement of British Telecom's Bluephone project, now officially called "BT Fusion". More information here.

nowiresmatt

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#15684 15-Jun-2005 22:12

Most M2M communication does not go near the internet -

I'm sorry I would have to disagree on this once you start moving to WAN such as GPRS or 1X.

Back in the old days of Mobitex, Datatac, NAMPS or GSM CS calls this may have been the case however it is pricy, darn annoying and quite frankly limited to within networks.

There will not be a network technology so ubiquitos that you can design solely for data coverage and range etc. Just try getting GSM to a navigation beacon 200 nautical miles of the coast of Australia for example. So for Telemetry and M2M you end up having to go outside one network to acheive reasonable coverage. Once this is done you pratically HAVE to rely on the internet. The days of X.25 have basically gone - Thank the heavens for that!!!

The biggest block for mobile data expansion is not the cost (still very high, but possible) but the lack of darn IP address. IP6 is critical to acheive the level of mobile data transmission necessary so we can get away from dynamic addresses everytime you go to transmit.

The internet will always play a part in the majority of M2M communications moving forward. The carriers struggle to configure and maintain private WWAN and the only really realiable way out of many networks is the I/Net gateway.

As for comparing mobile data networks with the internet - I would place it about 5 years behind. However for most M2M comms the drivers are not bandwidth, they are cost, direct IP addressing and uniquity of coverage.

Consultants and Hype Generators - Got to love them!
M2M was the next big thing - since 1991
Ubiquitos Computing was the next big thing, IBM 1995 (M2M).
Bluetooth was going to be massive and in absolutely everything - US$10B market in 2003, circa 1998. (I'm still trying to figure out the bluetooth toaster)
And my personal favorite - Booze Allen advising AT&T that the maximum number of mobile phone users in the US would only ever be 500,000. The recommendation - sell the network as the return on investment was too low. The result AT&T sold to McCaw, years later McCaw sold back to AT&T - the profit was obscene.

Now what did I mean to say - Oh yeah - the internet is critical in mobile comms... Just try Telemetry and Remote Control over 30 countries, GPRS, 1X, and Satellite without it.

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tonyhughes

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#15686 16-Jun-2005 08:24

Doesnt anyone other than me and cokemaster want to talk about EVDO / 1X Data Pricing ? :-(

tonyhughes

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#15687 16-Jun-2005 08:26

cokemaster "Without any 'flat rate', I'm really paranoid about data usage thus will only use GPRS open internet maybe once a week to ssh to one of my servers. I use the voda live portal a lot because I don't need to worry about data though and I have signed up for things like the news and weather."

I would be the same if I had to pay for my data (thanks Telecom). I use about 400megs a month on average. 100 or so on the Harrier, and 300 or so on my t3g card. My usage would drop slightly if i was paying.

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#15688 16-Jun-2005 08:28

nowiresmatt you should have a look at the Telecom Private Office networking product. This is direct routing from CDMA to any IP access technology - as simple as a 128k DSL link. The IP address range is private (you pick it) generally 10.x.x.x and a customer can choose dynamic or static allocation based on username. This is private WWAN with scale - 5 users to thousands of users. It is simple to configure and use. This is how most M2M routes. No internet gateways or internet access.

You are correct that going global does add other challenges but they are not impossible to overcome. Telcos will eventually have the capability to receive data from any public IP source to route through to private WWAN.

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#15696 16-Jun-2005 10:21

We use PON. 4 fixed sites in the north island, and about 15 remote. Its great. Very useful without any internet access, although we are about to whack a Jetstream plan on it (which as you know, one internet connection will service our whole company regardless of location). This makes for much easier security implementation.

nowiresmatt

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#15701 16-Jun-2005 21:06

Jama,

Yes, I'm familiar with that service however the cost increment and network dependency places too much of a restriction on the service for a ubiquitos M2M solution.

We have also experienced more outages when using the WWAN service that the standard IP gateways - go figure.

My focus is on the same set-up independent of the network GPRS, 1X, Satellite etc.

Cheers

Batty Matty