DIY double glazing - hermetically sealed?

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geekIT

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#236378 30-May-2018 12:33

I have a sneaking suspicion that commercially-made double glazed panels have some sort of inert gas in them.

Anyone know?

I'm thinking of doing a couple of windows, but if they'll be prone to collecting condensate I'll have to re-think the project.

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#2025601 30-May-2018 12:36

I had the option when buying mine. They are filled with argon gas.

timmmay

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#2025632 30-May-2018 12:53

I had retrofit double glazing that was just a piece of thick plastic attached to the inside of the window, with a border to keep the air in. It wasn't fully sealed, but it was mostly sealed. I had it a few years, it was a bit ugly but worked quite well - I'd say 70% as well as proper double glazing.

It was actually a lot quieter than proper double glazing, because the old windows I had were thick wood with a layer of glass then plastic. The new PVC double glazing is just two thin PVC sheets, and because there are spacers under the window panel there's an air gap. Before with the old windows I couldn't hear my air conditioner outdoor unit, but with the new PVC double glazing I can.

Sidestep

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#2025657 30-May-2018 13:16

geekIT:

I have a sneaking suspicion that commercially-made double glazed panels have some sort of inert gas in them.

Newer/better quality double/triple have Argon or Xenon.
Older or cheaper units may just have dried air.

wellygary

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#2025688 30-May-2018 14:06

geekIT:

I'm thinking of doing a couple of windows, but if they'll be prone to collecting condensate I'll have to re-think the project.

Do an experiment, get a small pane of glass/plastic/whatever you are going to use as your inner pane and seal it to a window with a circular bead of silicon 10 or 20cms in diameter,

Wait and watch over a few days to see what sort of condensation issues you have?

timmmay

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#2025804 30-May-2018 17:23

I have some large 3mm thick plastic sheets that were used as double glazing, which I'd sell if anyone wants them. Based in Wellington Northern Suburbs. I have exact sizes somewhere, but I have lots that are about 40x50cm (small opening windows) and half a dozen that are maybe 2x3m or larger. You'd have to work out how to mount them - I have a bit of the mounting left as a demo but you'd probably have to rebuild the mounting.

geekIT

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#2026088 31-May-2018 09:37

Guys, thanks for the responses.

Delphinus: Argon, ok. But you had the 'option' - presumably to leave them with plain air?

Sidestep: Dried air? I wonder how long it would take for the panel's dry air to become as damp as the surrounding air. Brownian motion and all that?

Wellygary: Good call, I'll try a small piece. There are two lots of sashes that need treatment. Room 1 (bedroom) - moist air that dumps wetness on the sill. The other room - lounge, where the fire is, condensation no problem, but heat loss through glass and lunatic 40-year-old bi-polar teenager 'neighbor' with a loud music fetish - most definitely IS.

Timmmay: Thanks for the offer but I think glass would be better for image quality. I already replaced the ripply antique 3mm glass in the lounge sashes with modern 4.5mm float glass, because I was never sure what was going on outside :-). 6mm perspex might be OK but it's probably dearer than glass.

'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.' Voltaire

'A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.' Edward Abbey

mdf

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#2026098 31-May-2018 10:02

geekIT:

<snip>

Timmmay: Thanks for the offer but I think glass would be better for image quality. I already replaced the ripply antique 3mm glass in the lounge sashes with modern 4.5mm float glass, because I was never sure what was going on outside :-). 6mm perspex might be OK but it's probably dearer than glass.

Glass is heavy. You might want to check whether you will also need to upgrade screws and hinges (or for double hung sash windows, the weights) if you're doubling the weight on anything that moves.

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geekIT

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#2026123 31-May-2018 10:53

mdf: Glass is heavy. You might want to check whether you will also need to upgrade screws and hinges (or for double hung sash windows, the weights) if you're doubling the weight on anything that moves.

True. But I already did the hinges.

'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.' Voltaire

'A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.' Edward Abbey

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#2026135 31-May-2018 11:14

you ain't seen nothin' yet

geekIT

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#2026163 31-May-2018 12:23

Batman: you ain't seen nothin' yet

Yeah, a mate's been trying to convince me that I should go for the bubble wrap. Apparently it's quite effective.

But I doubt it'd stay in place, given the Force 12 levels of sound emanating from over the fence :-(

Cheers

'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.' Voltaire

'A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.' Edward Abbey

Lastman

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#2026173 31-May-2018 12:42

geekIT:
Guys, thanks for the responses.

Sidestep: Dried air? I wonder how long it would take for the panel's dry air to become as damp as the surrounding air. Brownian motion and all that?

Unless air can enter the panel there is not enough moisture to cause any noticeable condensation. The panel seals are designed to have extremel low air permeability using compounds like butyl.

If air can get inside moisture will build up and start to fill the unit.

You may still get some condensation on the room side, if the insulation factor is not high enough for the conditions, or condensation on the frame, if there is no thermal break across it.

timmmay

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#2026193 31-May-2018 13:03

Plastic over windows does help, but it's ugly, it sags, and the glue can be difficult to get off. I had to repaint my windows after I did that. Not worth it.

geekIT

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#2026269 31-May-2018 14:14

Lastman: Unless air can enter the panel there is not enough moisture to cause any noticeable condensation. The panel seals are designed to have extremel low air permeability using compounds like butyl.

If air can get inside moisture will build up and start to fill the unit. You may still get some condensation on the room side, if the insulation factor is not high enough for the conditions, or condensation on the frame, if there is no thermal break across it.

Wouldn't the local air eventually replace the air in the panels? Unless the panels were 100% sealed?

I mean, wouldn't the two brews try to equalize themselves? Even through a single 1mm hole?

'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.' Voltaire

'A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.' Edward Abbey

Lastman

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#2026276 31-May-2018 14:28

geekIT:
Lastman: Unless air can enter the panel there is not enough moisture to cause any noticeable condensation. The panel seals are designed to have extremel low air permeability using compounds like butyl.

If air can get inside moisture will build up and start to fill the unit. You may still get some condensation on the room side, if the insulation factor is not high enough for the conditions, or condensation on the frame, if there is no thermal break across it.

Wouldn't the local air eventually replace the air in the panels? Unless the panels were 100% sealed?

I mean, wouldn't the two brews try to equalize themselves? Even through a single 1mm hole?

Commercial dg units are 100% sealed therefore air cannot exchange with the outside.

Secondary dg windows always have some means of opening or accessing to clean any condensation, mould etc that might occur as the seals are unlikely to be perfect. The inner (room side) seal is the key one. I’ve had secondary glazing that’s gone years without need to access the inside though.

geekIT

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#2026313 31-May-2018 15:21

Secondary dg windows always have some means of opening or accessing to clean any condensation, mould etc that might occur as the seals are unlikely to be perfect. The inner (room side) seal is the key one. I’ve had secondary glazing that’s gone years without need to access the inside though.

OK. Sounds like hinged panels of 6mm perspex screwed to the sash on top of an edging strip of weather-seal might be a goer.

Cheers

'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.' Voltaire

'A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.' Edward Abbey

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