Getting screws to hold in end grain

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#1717728 9-Feb-2017 15:05

Glue and screw would probably be enough IMHO. The concern with screwing into the grain isn't the shear force (i.e. the weight of the shelf pressing down perpendicular to the screws), it is the pull force parallel to the screws. You won't get much pull force parallel to the screws, since the screws along the other edge/across the grain will resist that force.

Just don't overtighten.

Given you've got a few shelves and it would be worth the investment in making a jig/guide, cam fasteners could be another option. But they're ugly if you can see them.

Coil

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#1717741 9-Feb-2017 15:16

ubergeeknz:

I'd probably put small battens underneath and screw into the door and the bottom of each shelf.

Since its a high unit this may have a negative visual impact.

ubergeeknz

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#1717742 9-Feb-2017 15:18

TimA:

ubergeeknz:

I'd probably put small battens underneath and screw into the door and the bottom of each shelf.

Since its a high unit this may have a negative visual impact.

True that. As you say screw and glue from the back should do the trick just fine.

jimbob79

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#1717743 9-Feb-2017 15:18

TimA:

What a cool little project, Is this an operating door to hide shelves or decorative shelving.

How much weight are you holding on the shelves?

Are you going for the most discrete look with floating shelves?

It's a decorative shelving using a door, with inspiration from Pinterest. I have no idea about the what object will be placed on it. I am going for the 'discrete look' plus LED strip lighting recessed into the the under underside of the shelves.

Coil

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#1717744 9-Feb-2017 15:21

mdf:

Glue and screw would probably be enough IMHO. The concern with screwing into the grain isn't the shear force (i.e. the weight of the shelf pressing down perpendicular to the screws), it is the pull force parallel to the screws. You won't get much pull force parallel to the screws, since the screws along the other edge/across the grain will resist that force.

Just don't overtighten.

Given you've got a few shelves and it would be worth the investment in making a jig/guide, cam fasteners could be another option. But they're ugly if you can see them.

Second to that, Use a foam expanding glue and clamp your shelves down really tight so they cant move when the glue cures. Will fill all the gaps and be secure. Then drill pilot holes and screw it off.
My father used to import a product called Woodbond and that was the best for this. Could hold a shelf without screws. Withstood heat and could cure submerged. Metal/wood/stainless.. Shame he doesnt anymore.

MikeAqua

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#1717746 9-Feb-2017 15:26

TimA:

mdf:

Glue and screw would probably be enough IMHO. The concern with screwing into the grain isn't the shear force (i.e. the weight of the shelf pressing down perpendicular to the screws), it is the pull force parallel to the screws. You won't get much pull force parallel to the screws, since the screws along the other edge/across the grain will resist that force.

Just don't overtighten.

Given you've got a few shelves and it would be worth the investment in making a jig/guide, cam fasteners could be another option. But they're ugly if you can see them.

Second to that, Use a foam expanding glue and clamp your shelves down really tight so they cant move when the glue cures. Will fill all the gaps and be secure. Then drill pilot holes and screw it off.
My father used to import a product called Woodbond and that was the best for this. Could hold a shelf without screws. Withstood heat and could cure submerged. Metal/wood/stainless.. Shame he doesnt anymore.

3rd to that ...

Mike

mdooher

Hmm, what to write...
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#1717786 9-Feb-2017 16:53

If you want to use the dowel method but don't have any hardwood then knead-it (any version) will wok perfectly. Mix it, press it into the hole wait 5 min, and drill the pilot hole. if you feel in a engineering mood you can even drill and tap it and use machine screws but that is going a bit far.

I use knead-it when trying to screw into chipboard. I drill a larger hole, undercut it so it has a larger diameter at the bottom, plug it with kneed it, wait 5 min and drill and screw into it. You can buy the proper thing at carters but this method is cheaper.

Matthew

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Coil

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#1717801 9-Feb-2017 17:44

jimbob79:

TimA:

What a cool little project, Is this an operating door to hide shelves or decorative shelving.

How much weight are you holding on the shelves?

Are you going for the most discrete look with floating shelves?

It's a decorative shelving using a door, with inspiration from Pinterest. I have no idea about the what object will be placed on it. I am going for the 'discrete look' plus LED strip lighting recessed into the the under underside of the shelves.

Ahh, That looks excellent! I think your going to achieve this look well!

Give its supported on a 90 degree angle it will have strong shelves, Glueing and screwing will have this solid as a rock.
Make sure before it all gets glued and screwed together, put your draw wire holes in. Its very hard to get a drill chuck into a corner of a shelf to drill from the inside out unless you spend $1500 on this.

I see you made a little lip under the shelf to discretely hide the LED. Just make sure the top shelf isnt going to strike you in the eyes if your a little under the shelf.

Where are you going to hide the driver? At the top or the bottom?

Bung

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#1717831 9-Feb-2017 18:42

As long as the screws are long enough I don't even think glue would be necessary unless the shelves were actually the secret ladder to a hiding place in the attic. With enough engagement you'd wind the head off before the thread would strip unless you had drilled too big a pilot hole.

Coil

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#1717838 9-Feb-2017 18:55

Bung: As long as the screws are long enough I don't even think glue would be necessary unless the shelves were actually the secret ladder to a hiding place in the attic. With enough engagement you'd wind the head off before the thread would strip unless you had drilled too big a pilot hole.

I wouldnt go that far as to say that you will snap the head off! Maybe if it was bone dry hard wood.
I had a square drive 150MM extension and left a few screws in the middle of a log proving a point haha :)

mdf

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#1717851 9-Feb-2017 19:25

TimA:

Ahh, That looks excellent! I think your going to achieve this look well!

Give its supported on a 90 degree angle it will have strong shelves, Glueing and screwing will have this solid as a rock.
Make sure before it all gets glued and screwed together, put your draw wire holes in. Its very hard to get a drill chuck into a corner of a shelf to drill from the inside out unless you spend $1500 on this.

I see you made a little lip under the shelf to discretely hide the LED. Just make sure the top shelf isnt going to strike you in the eyes if your a little under the shelf.

Where are you going to hide the driver? At the top or the bottom?

@TimA you need one of these bad boys. I don't use mine all that often, but when you really need it there's no substitute. Even my pro builder mates go a bit weak at the knees when I pull it out for that particularly tight job. Bunnings has things that are similar in principle but three times the price.

Hammerer

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#1717900 9-Feb-2017 20:15

jimbob79:

I saw this simple trick of screwing into end grain timber and it asks for 'hardwood' plug/dowel. Looking at the local sources Mitre10/Bunnings that they seam to only sell pine dowel rods.

You can buy small hardwood dowels at the hardware stores but they are up to 12mm/0.5" diameter and about 25-40mm/1-1.5" length, e.g. https://www.bunnings.co.nz/pg-professional-dowel-fluted-10mm-40pk_p00139142

I use them all the time mainly for repairs. On larger items you just have to use more. I gave up on screws because they don't sand, often need to be covered or filled, are relatively inflexible so they get loose if flexed particularly in pine furniture, cause splits to form, and they break wood. My dining room chairs are the greatest challenge - they have sliders on the legs so seated weight is helping to push the legs apart making them susceptible to breaking under unexpected loads. Dowels have proved to be much more resilient as I haven't had to replace any even when people in the seats have tipped them over heavily.

jimbob79

673 posts

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#1717933 9-Feb-2017 21:14

TimA:

jimbob79:

TimA:

What a cool little project, Is this an operating door to hide shelves or decorative shelving.

How much weight are you holding on the shelves?

Are you going for the most discrete look with floating shelves?

It's a decorative shelving using a door, with inspiration from Pinterest. I have no idea about the what object will be placed on it. I am going for the 'discrete look' plus LED strip lighting recessed into the the under underside of the shelves.

Ahh, That looks excellent! I think your going to achieve this look well!

Give its supported on a 90 degree angle it will have strong shelves, Glueing and screwing will have this solid as a rock.
Make sure before it all gets glued and screwed together, put your draw wire holes in. Its very hard to get a drill chuck into a corner of a shelf to drill from the inside out unless you spend $1500 on this.

I see you made a little lip under the shelf to discretely hide the LED. Just make sure the top shelf isnt going to strike you in the eyes if your a little under the shelf.

Where are you going to hide the driver? At the top or the bottom?

I hope I can answer your questions. I got some LED Strip Diffusers from BangGood (see image below) which I hope will will solve the issue of light strike/glare also I wireless remote which has 'Dimmer Control' function which should also help.

I was going to have the power switching supply stealth at the top of the shelving unit but I had a change of mind and now going to have it on the floor since it's 'double insulated' seal unit (CE standard). The DC 12V wiring will be routed through a channel on the back side connecting each strip in a parallel/daisy chain configuration.

12V RF Wireless Remote Switch Controller Dimmer for Mini LED Strip Light GM

Also here here is a quick peek at how it will look like.

cadman

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#1717983 9-Feb-2017 22:30

I'd have just put rebates in the face of the door and polyurethane the shelf in.

blakamin

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#1717987 9-Feb-2017 22:37

jimbob79:

I saw this simple trick of screwing into end grain timber and it asks for 'hardwood' plug/dowel. Looking at the local sources Mitre10/Bunnings that they seam to only sell pine dowel rods. Do you think pine will work for this trick????

Ref: http://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/endgrain_screw.html

I cant see why pine wouldn't work... the grain is going opposite in the plug and would have no room to expand if it was tight in the hole (asked my boss, who is a furniture polisher and has seen lots of fixings in his years in the trade, and he agreed).

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