Imported Devices From China, Electrical Certification?

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589 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1795755 7-Jun-2017 09:44

Filterer:

solutionz: Yep hence onus is on the supplier (importer) to make the declaration; and re-test / QA if necessary - exactly what I was involved in doing.

I think this is a point that most people are missing - ANYONE can be the importer - it doesn't have to be the manufacturer. If I was to import them myself and sell on trademe (not that I have - but some people are..) then I can legally create an SDOC *if* the devices are compliant.

Now of course you can get into a discussion if the certifications/testing the device has had in china stacks up or not in terms of proving compliance- but if you do a little googaling for SDOCs you will find PLENTY of other devices that local importers have bought in and signed an SDOC based on china based testing.

Then if they turns out to cause a fire / electric someone then the importer is responsible since they signed the SDOC. Now of course it gets interesting if you import them for yourself AND sign the SDOC yourself then give them to your sparky to install...

Which is why you (as the supplier) ideally want to review the manufacturer's full test report and QA at least a (random) sample of the items yourself to ensure critical components are unchanged and pass at least an AS/NZS 3760 or similar.

sbiddle

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Biddle Corp

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#1795761 7-Jun-2017 09:55

I was speaking to an Australian electrical goods distributor last year about some products and the topic of Chinese stuff came up. He talked about getting 15A rated breakers that went put forward for testing failed. The Chinese manufacturer told him that you didn't ask for "test products" and promptly sent him samples that passed testing but were clearly different to the actual goods they wanted to supply.

Filterer

489 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1795779 7-Jun-2017 10:14

sbiddle:

I was speaking to an Australian electrical goods distributor last year about some products and the topic of Chinese stuff came up. He talked about getting 15A rated breakers that went put forward for testing failed. The Chinese manufacturer told him that you didn't ask for "test products" and promptly sent him samples that passed testing but were clearly different to the actual goods they wanted to supply.

As per my other response about their the iTead/Sonoff recall - I think its worth (restating) that there are two points to be made from this thread

1) As a general stereotype yes, there are many dodgy Chinese manufacturers who could/would endanger your safety to save a buck

2) As a general rule, it seems itead does not fit that stereotype, reasonably well designed and care enough to do entire product line recalls if/when needed.

pɐǝɥ sıɥ uo ƃuıpuɐʇs

fnzb

1 post

Wannabe Geek

#1829319 25-Jul-2017 20:05

Hi,

Can anybody tell me if you can import a product yourself if another company has already got a SDoC for the same product?

Can you supply the other companies SDoC in order to get the COC?

Thanks.

kryptonjohn

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#1830469 26-Jul-2017 08:55

eph:

I would read through this.

My experience with Sonoff: I've used this switch before and it's very low quality - it's really painful to attach wires there - doesn't use screws, just some small plastic clamps, almost impossible to plug the wires into those tiny holes. I bought the 15A rated switch and it just melted (the connectors and surrounding plastic) after few uses.

T.

That's not good!

The one in the photo has screw terminals and a strain relief clamp - maybe they have updated it.

The image of the PCB shows that the 220V 10A current is carried between the screw terminals and the relay via some fat tracks on the PCB ... is that OK?

solutionz

589 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1830565 26-Jul-2017 11:06

fnzb:

Hi,

Can anybody tell me if you can import a product yourself if another company has already got a SDoC for the same product?

Can you supply the other companies SDoC in order to get the COC?

Thanks.

An SDoC is a "supplier declaration of conformity".

A supplier can't declare conformity of a product if it hasn't passed through their supply chain.

For example;

If Ideal Electrical import a Schneider switch and provide their own (Ideal's) SDoC, you can't parallel import [what you think to be] the same switch and use Ideal's SDoC.

However if you can get a valid SDoC direct from Schneider and purchase through a legitimate supply chain then you can either just present Schneider's SDoC or use that as your evidence for creating your own SDoC.

surfisup1000

5288 posts

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#1830574 26-Jul-2017 11:29

Being perfectly honest, anything that comes from china bearing any kind of compliance marking I would not trust, unless it is a well know brand, It's quite common for manufactures to offer compliance marking as an optional extra regardless of it actually meeting the requirements or not, seen it quite a number of times myself.

I bet half the stuff on trademe has no certification at all.

I bought an OEM lenovo power adaptor off trademe. It arrived and it is not lenovo at all - i had an argument with the trader who offered a refund if I returned at my own cost.

So given trademe sellers are selling counterfeit AC power adaptors it is not a stretch to assume the printed safety certification logos are false as well.

China is a funny old country, they insist on the highest quality standards of goods we sell to them, yet they send us a constant supply of absolute rubbish and dangerous goods. I get that some stuff is high quality, but so much more is not.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

neb

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#1830575 26-Jul-2017 11:33

solutionz:
CE and other marks don't guarantee NZ compliance; although NZ inherits many IEC / European standards they are usually localized (have parts changed i.e. voltage/plug/spectrum requirements) turning something like IEC-61010 into AS/NZS-61010.

Another thing is that just because it has a CE mark, or any other kind of mark on it, doesn't mean it's been subject to any testing or certification. You can request Chinese manufacturers to put anything you want on what they're making for you in order to get it past customs, so if you want to know whether it's really been evaluated you need to track down the original paperwork from the lab that (e.g. we tracked one down to a place in Canada, then verified the serial numbers to make sure that the vendor hadn't just copied someone else's onto their gear).

neb

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#1830578 26-Jul-2017 11:38

surfisup1000:
So given trademe sellers are selling counterfeit AC power adaptors it is not a stretch to assume the printed safety certification logos are false as well.

There's a mixture of fake and genuine, you just have to do a lot of sleuthing to figure out which is which. It's easiest if you source them directly from the vendor in China and buy a large batch that you've checked the certification for. Then spot-test a few of them to make sure it's really what you think it is, they may have found a cheaper alternative source and shipped you their product instead without telling you.

You can actually get good-quality stuff, you just have to watch every part of the supply chain. OTOH if you're importing a one-off item yourself, you're at the mercy of the vendors. That's why for things that matter it's better to buy from a local distributor who has taken care of all this for you.

phrozenpenguin

840 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1960556 19-Feb-2018 19:58

Just wondering if, after some time, any of the above has changed? Keen to use some Sonoff devices wired into the mains, but don't know a NZ importer (linked to SODC).

Dunnersfella

4086 posts

Uber Geek

#1960595 19-Feb-2018 20:43

surfisup1000:

Being perfectly honest, anything that comes from china bearing any kind of compliance marking I would not trust, unless it is a well know brand, It's quite common for manufactures to offer compliance marking as an optional extra regardless of it actually meeting the requirements or not, seen it quite a number of times myself.

I bet half the stuff on trademe has no certification at all.

Never a truer word spoken!*

Even electrical wholesalers aren't checking everything, thinking that if there's a CE tick it 'should be fine'. Items they are supplying those in the trade may not be suitable... it's time businesses like this were inspected. There's either not enough resources or motivation from the powers that be to check, even for the big guys!

*or typed, as the case may be

Wellingtondave

156 posts

Master Geek

#1960625 19-Feb-2018 22:15

To reply to the O.P, it can be difficult and I've been both on both sides, as an importer/reseller and also as the client checking out those [faked] Chinese test certificate claims. As an importer I've had the foreign agents ask me what I wanted printed on the test certificates and product labels.

As a consumer if the products are for your own use it all comes down to risk, what/who do you trust? Any [decent] electrician won't touch an unknown product where they have not sighted the SDOC (because of the risk).

https://www.energysafety.govt.nz/documents/about/publications/publications-for-industry/compliance-guides/guide-to-safe-electrical-gas-products.pdf

sir1963

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#1962172 22-Feb-2018 12:12

gregmcc:

solutionz:

It's not so straight forward, and there are some grey areas - having gone through the full NZ/AU approvals on a product myself...

Essentially every [electrical / electronic] product must meet a series of NZ standards primarily relating to:

electrical safety,
electromagnetic compatibility (EMC)
and any additional specific classes (medical devices, mechanical safety etc).
The type of product determines the specific standards it must meet and also the level of "supporting evidence" required to prove it from (min to max):

Supplier Declaration of Conformity (SDoC) - declaring that it meets the standards.
A relevant [internal or unaccredited] test report showing it meets the standards.
An independent test report from a recognized accredited test lab.

Based on the above the product may be granted use of a particular approval mark: RCM, CE, UL etc

Basically from a consumer point of view RCM mark above (tick in circle in triangle) implies compliance in NZ (and AU) - most modern approved devices will have this mark however there are still some caveats.

CE and other marks don't guarantee NZ compliance; although NZ inherits many IEC / European standards they are usually localized (have parts changed i.e. voltage/plug/spectrum requirements) turning something like IEC-61010 into AS/NZS-61010.

Being perfectly honest, anything that comes from china bearing any kind of compliance marking I would not trust, unless it is a well know brand, It's quite common for manufactures to offer compliance marking as an optional extra regardless of it actually meeting the requirements or not, seen it quite a number of times myself.

Yea, we had some Chinese imports here at work, they used Green for Phase, neutral and earth in different parts of the circuit. They had an incorrectly labeled transformer in it, undersized wiring , fuse wired incorrectly , the earth screwed into plastic, not metal part of the chassis . You name it, we have seen it. ANYTHING from China gets dismantled and checked properly.

shanek

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Geek

#2023988 28-May-2018 15:08

I have a number of the SONOFF devices running and find them of very good quality, i thought i would look into the certification of them and think it would cost around 2K to get them certified for use here in NZ and am confident they would be certified as they are certified in other countries for use.

I looked on the worksafe site https://worksafe.govt.nz/topic-and-industry/electricity/appliances-and-fittings/high-and-medium-risk-products/medium-risk-product-list/supplier-declaration-of-conformity/ and called them to clarify a few things around process and was interested in their response so thought i would share here. And yes i know everyone will have their opposing opinion but this is what i was told.

An SDOC is required if you want to import and sell these devices to people, If you want to import them for your personal use in your own house then a SDOC is not required.

I questioned the person at worksafe on this and she said it was up to the installing electrician to decide if they looked safe, i pointed out that law in New Zealand does not require you to get an electrician to replace a light switch and even the work safe website states this. They called me back later and said as long as my electrician was happy with it then i was fine which again i pointed out to replace a light switch did not require an electrician.

I ended up calling my insurance company and explained this all to them and they seem OK with me installing these fittings in my house and they are the people who really matter after all.

If however there are a group of people on this site that would like the T1,2,3 Sonoff light switches certified i would be prepared to front it and we can all share the costs to get them certified as it may only cost $100 each if there are a few of us and then we can all use them without this hassle.

sir1963

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#2024008 28-May-2018 15:55

shanek:

I have a number of the SONOFF devices running and find them of very good quality, i thought i would look into the certification of them and think it would cost around 2K to get them certified for use here in NZ and am confident they would be certified as they are certified in other countries for use.

I looked on the worksafe site https://worksafe.govt.nz/topic-and-industry/electricity/appliances-and-fittings/high-and-medium-risk-products/medium-risk-product-list/supplier-declaration-of-conformity/ and called them to clarify a few things around process and was interested in their response so thought i would share here. And yes i know everyone will have their opposing opinion but this is what i was told.

An SDOC is required if you want to import and sell these devices to people, If you want to import them for your personal use in your own house then a SDOC is not required.

I questioned the person at worksafe on this and she said it was up to the installing electrician to decide if they looked safe, i pointed out that law in New Zealand does not require you to get an electrician to replace a light switch and even the work safe website states this. They called me back later and said as long as my electrician was happy with it then i was fine which again i pointed out to replace a light switch did not require an electrician.

I ended up calling my insurance company and explained this all to them and they seem OK with me installing these fittings in my house and they are the people who really matter after all.

If however there are a group of people on this site that would like the T1,2,3 Sonoff light switches certified i would be prepared to front it and we can all share the costs to get them certified as it may only cost $100 each if there are a few of us and then we can all use them without this hassle.

So, here is the situation. YES, the electrician can install stuff that has no compliance certificate , but what they are doing is certifying it personally when they give you a certificate of compliance.

IF there is a fire, fatality or what ever, the electrician takes 100% of the liability because they signed it off. Even compliant devices, they would need to show that they used it in a manner that the manufacturer intended (for it to be compliant). And the problem with compliance is that if they change any of the components it requires and updated compliance certificate.

And I would be asking for something from your insurance company in writing to say they would accept liability, its too late after an event.

Part of the cost is destructive testing of a random sample of the devices.

As always, the last thing you want to be is the test case in a court of law.

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