OldGeek:

 

charliebrownnz:

When doing some research I noticed some power companies mentioned "remote meter reading" devices when a smart meter wouldn't work, that's why I assume we actually have smart meters being installed.

I did notice that the main devices targeted for the "demand management" aspect of the NZS 4755 standards are air conditioners. I do have a hunch that our power grid will not be able to keep up with peak demand in the next few years and eventually we won't have a choice about some of these measures. I imagine the biggest drain on the power grid during peak demand will soon be electric vehicles and home cooling and we will get some form off involuntary rationing.

 

The fact is the positioning of the meter, regardless of whether it is smart or not, prohibits selective physical load control.  Every electrical device is downstream of the meter and therefore if the meter was capable of switching, it would be everything off or on.  Note that a copy NZS 4755 requires a fee to be paid so I have not been able to see this.

 

The below article seems to shed light on the standard.

https://electricalconnection.com.au/manage-household-electricity-demand-with-asnzs-4755-compliant-products/

the below submission pdf from an Australian power company also gives some further insight:

https://www.energyrating.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/SP%20Ausnet.pdf

In particular the following paragraph:

AusNet Services is supportive of greater regulatory incentives for
manufactures of high power electricity domestic appliances to
meet AS/NZS 4755. We would support mandating for:
 Air conditioning;
 Electric Vehicles charging installations at premises also
referred to as Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE);
 Batteries or Energy Storage System (ESS); and
 PV systems (without storage)
We note, air conditioning is a major driver of peak network load
especially during hot summer days. Demand management for air
conditioning load is strongly supported.
Pool pumps are not currently identified as a significant load in the
AusNet Services network.
Hot Water Storage units are currently managed for load via the AMI
network with off-peak tariffs and randomisation. The ability for Hot
Water Storage to be switched during the day may be useful but this
can be done with meters with direct load control.
Electric Vehicles are recognised as a major driver for future network
load and an opportunity for network support. Demand management
for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSEs) at a residential level is
strongly supported and has the potential to offer very significant
demand resources for wholesale electricity markets and in support of
networks.
Although not proposed in the Consultation Paper, AusNet Services
recommends the inclusion of batteries/ESS and PV systems (without
storage) for demand management via mandating in AS/NZS 4755.
PV systems that can be controlled to curtail grid export can be
effective for LV voltage management and increasing the numbers of
solar systems able to be connected to the network. An ESS interface
could help open up the market for ESS to provide network support
services. The ability to isolate PV systems for safety and confirm they
are isolated when our lines-people are working on the network would
be desirable. 

The paper also mentions that smart meters are used for demand management.

I do see really good utility with such functionality however I personally don't trust companies if power becomes a highly demanded yet under supplied product. The way the standard is being sold to us is it will enable people to elect to sign up to a power plan that ensures that high draining devices are throttled during peak demand times to avoid surge pricing. To sweeten the deal power companies will charge a discounted rate to people who go on such a plan. The idea is brilliant however I personally wouldn't sign up to such a plan. Its exactly the same rationale with ripple control with hot water but taken to a much more far reaching extent.

Danite: I'd give Nova a call I know they still employ their own meter readers so they must still have a large enough base that still needs reading.

The other issue you may run into over time is that your metering installation has to be certified (10Y I believe but many are well out of date), to do that these days the owners of the meters replace them rather than bother with certifying old. I don't know if you could elect to pay the cost yourself for certification of the old system but that's what it may come to.

Yea thanks, I will give them a call.

I get the feeling that I'm just resisting a change I won't have a choice about in the future. I will just pay attention to power crises over the upcoming years and look at off-grid solutions once/if it becomes apparent that power rationing/blackouts are likely. This isn't a conspiracy theory as I don't see it being deliberately planned, it will just be a result of poor grid management and planning.

charliebrownnz:

 

I do see really good utility with such functionality however I personally don't trust companies if power becomes a highly demanded yet under supplied product. The way the standard is being sold to us is it will enable people to elect to sign up to a power plan that ensures that high draining devices are throttled during peak demand times to avoid surge pricing. To sweeten the deal power companies will charge a discounted rate to people who go on such a plan. The idea is brilliant however I personally wouldn't sign up to such a plan. Its exactly the same rationale with ripple control with hot water but taken to a much more far reaching extent.

There are two key components missing here: compulsion and New Zealand.  As you say the Australians are looking at power pricing as an incentive to allow reduced demand from specific appliances as an electricity load reduction tool.  Transpower also may look at this but local lines companies as well as generators and retailers are not in this picture but are materially affected - so it seems unlikely this will progress here.

OldGeek:

 

charliebrownnz:

 

I do see really good utility with such functionality however I personally don't trust companies if power becomes a highly demanded yet under supplied product. The way the standard is being sold to us is it will enable people to elect to sign up to a power plan that ensures that high draining devices are throttled during peak demand times to avoid surge pricing. To sweeten the deal power companies will charge a discounted rate to people who go on such a plan. The idea is brilliant however I personally wouldn't sign up to such a plan. Its exactly the same rationale with ripple control with hot water but taken to a much more far reaching extent.

 

There are two key components missing here: compulsion and New Zealand.  As you say the Australians are looking at power pricing as an incentive to allow reduced demand from specific appliances as an electricity load reduction tool.  Transpower also may look at this but local lines companies as well as generators and retailers are not in this picture but are materially affected - so it seems unlikely this will progress here.

 

I hope your right but i'm not betting on it. We've had more regulation than deregulation over the last couple of decades so the trend line is to have more compulsion. And the reality is, its in most companies T&C's that they can take steps to mitigate power usage in extreme times. Example from energy online below:

In the event of a local or national energy shortage, or in circumstances of extreme wholesale prices, your energy supply may be rationed or restricted. Energy may also be rationed as part of an energy industry rationing plan.​

If you want to avoid power rationing the way to do it is to have PV-storage or a generator, not to try and cheat the system. Having the supply system you seek will eventually backfire on you, because when stricter controls come out, you will be confined to uncontrolled power plans which presently (and will in future) incur higher charges than customers whose power can be moderated.

When the country runs out of power there will be rolling blackouts (et al Texas) and it doesn't matter what type of dumb/smart meter you have, power cuts mean no power. Allowing the power company to moderate your hot water or EV charging is better than darkness.

The obvious way around this issue (for the country) is to build enough power generation to avoid the need for rationing. Unfortunately NIMBY's disguised as pseudo environmentalists block any substantial generation construction. (kiwis confuse anti-progressiveness with environmentalism). 

Socialist are making the ultimate landing, harder. Transpower flattens out peak charges by charging off-peak and on-peak usage the same - this means less choice for consumers , less truth in billing (off peak subsidised on peak), and less reasons for anyone to voluntarily shift or self moderate usage. The present system is ultimately exacerbating the circumstances driving us toward the inevitable hard landing that the O.P. fears, and making that hard landing more extreme when it does come. .

Countries like the UK and Australia who have more truth in their billing have a greater range of power plans.

It isn't all doom and gloom - allowing the power company to modulate your EV charging in the UK ultimately leads to lower power prices which is a win for the consumer as well as a win for the generation industry. It avoids the need for upgrade.

tripper1000:

 

If you want to avoid power rationing the way to do it is to have PV-storage or a generator, not to try and cheat the system. Having the supply system you seek will eventually backfire on you, because when stricter controls come out, you will be confined to uncontrolled power plans which presently (and will in future) incur higher charges than customers whose power can be moderated.

 

When the country runs out of power there will be rolling blackouts (et al Texas) and it doesn't matter what type of dumb/smart meter you have, power cuts mean no power. Allowing the power company to moderate your hot water or EV charging is better than darkness.

 

The obvious way around this issue (for the country) is to build enough power generation to avoid the need for rationing. Unfortunately NIMBY's disguised as pseudo environmentalists block any substantial generation construction. (kiwis confuse anti-progressiveness with environmentalism). 

 

Socialist are making the ultimate landing, harder. Transpower flattens out peak charges by charging off-peak and on-peak usage the same - this means less choice for consumers , less truth in billing (off peak subsidised on peak), and less reasons for anyone to voluntarily shift or self moderate usage. The present system is ultimately exacerbating the circumstances driving us toward the inevitable hard landing that the O.P. fears, and making that hard landing more extreme when it does come. .

 

Countries like the UK and Australia who have more truth in their billing have a greater range of power plans.

 

It isn't all doom and gloom - allowing the power company to modulate your EV charging in the UK ultimately leads to lower power prices which is a win for the consumer as well as a win for the generation industry. It avoids the need for upgrade.

 

 

 

I'm completely opposed to the last few governments interference in our power consumption and generation so I personally have no objection to taking advantage of the rules they set even if it provides a net negative to everyone else. If you don't like people doing that then push back against the government setting up rules that lead to this. The supply system I would seek would be more reliable and more capable of generating power in peak times. So more backup coal power and removal of government incentives for products like EV's. My power usage is just a drop in the bucket on the grid so it won't have a meaningful impact, just like NZ's emissions do to the entire globe. Basically, I will act in my own interest, just as the government acts in its own interest.

4755 I believe uses physical wires to control terminals on the A/C unit to provide demand management. Closing specific contacts limits compressor power to 75%, 50%, or 0%.

It is not a situation where you get a smart meter installed, get a new A/C unit installed, and then it magically starts following commands from the power company. They need to install an extra relay box in the aircon unit - typically, the power company might offer you a rebate/incentive to get this done when you get a new unit installed. The mandating of A/C units supporting 4755 just means that the unit has these terminals available.

If anything, you're safer getting a smart meter now because it can't do any of that fancy communication, so they'll need to replace it again in a few years if they want to try.

charliebrownnz:  I'm completely opposed to the last few governments interference in our power consumption and generation so I personally have no objection to taking advantage of the rules they set even if it provides a net negative to everyone else.

What interference? We deregulated and adopted the Californian model after it had already failed, and no Govt since, of either flavour, has updated it. A hand at the tiller (let alone a sensible hand) is something our electrical system has never seen since deregulation.

charliebrownnz:  If you don't like people doing that then push back against the government setting up rules that lead to this.

My little rant above is to educate people to help make better leadership and policy choices.

charliebrownnz: The supply system I would seek would be more reliable and more capable of generating power in peak times. So more backup coal power and removal of government incentives for products like EV's. My power usage is just a drop in the bucket on the grid so it won't have a meaningful impact, just like NZ's emissions do to the entire globe. Basically, I will act in my own interest, just as the government acts in its own interest.

OK, out a bunch of misnomers and cliques in there. Coal is no good for peak-ing generation. It is very slow and expensive to start-up and shut down and is primarily a base load generator in countries that have a mix of sources. N.Z. primarily uses hydro for peak generation. Lakes are the most economical and environmentally friendly grid level storage, and renewable is the cheapest in the long term (read total cost of ownership not just ticket price to build). This is why even Texas, the oil capital of America, is building renewables faster than all other forms of generation, along with Norway (the oil capital of Europe) and Germany (the coal capital of Europe) etc. (And before you go down this path, all forms of renewable/coal/oil/gas/mule etc generation are cheaper than nuclear because 90% of countries are unable to price up the total cost of nuclear, including its end-of-life decommissioning).

NZ is blessed with lots of renewable energy we just need to pull up our big-boy pants and build renewable generation to keep up with population growth - and not hide behind pseudo science/false environmentalism/inaction/blocking.

Pollution wise - per-person, you/us/kiwi's make more pollution that the average French/German/Italian citizen, so it is false to hide behind the country-by-country stat's. Otherwise the solution would be as simple as dividing the world up into smaller countries to reduce the issue (China could divide it self into 1.4 billion countries and go from a major contributor to not even featuring on the per country graphs).

There is only 100,000 drops in a bucket so you and I do have a measureable impact in your proverbial bucket.

I thought you were anti-rationing? If you think EV's are the villain of electricity consumers why don't we put you on the rationing committee so you can decide who else is unworthy of buying your off-peak electricity at inflated rates to subsidise the on-peak electricity you are aiming to consume the very last slice of?

You will probably find the future of grid load management is in time-of-use pricing, which a smart meter allows you to take advantage of. 

Having the ability to get a data feed with the current price of electricity from your local grid exit point and local lines company which you can feed into compatible internet-connected devices will be the way it works. 

Eg. your washing machine or car charger can switch on when the power price drops to a certain level.  

Currently you get a discount for having ripple controlled hot water - coincidentally it just happens that the retailer is buying cheaper power when the hot water boiler is switched off so they can justify the discount, vs the risk of you heating water during the on-peak periods of the day at a higher cost to the retailer. 

If average electric consumption in the household increases, those that still have analog meters are going to find their electric bill increasing exponentially because the retailer needs to cover themselves against the risk of high consumption devices like water boilers and car chargers being run at peak times of the day. Having a smart meter allows your usage to be metered by the time of use and therefore you will get cheaper rates.  

And if you live in a cellphone blackspot, the meter reader can still use a smart meter and download the time-of-use data anyway with an optical coupler so you can still get the benefit of cheaper time-of-use rates.  

Some of the smart meters used here ARE actually prepped for interfacing with appliances - at least that's what I've been told in the industry. Genesis is one power company that opts to install these with their smart meter rollouts / new connections. The integration with smart appliances has been talked about for many years and doesn't seem to be gaining momentum (at least here) so I don't know if opting out of a smart meter would be necessary. You are right though, in regards to EV being pushed, our grid can't handle everyone charging their cars at night all at once. As for getting solar etc installed to help with this, you'd need to do a lot of research and get the right gear because if you want a 32A supply for the charging of a vehicle that's going to crash most inverters people have

Danite: I'd give Nova a call I know they still employ their own meter readers so they must still have a large enough base that still needs reading.

The other issue you may run into over time is that your metering installation has to be certified (10Y I believe but many are well out of date), to do that these days the owners of the meters replace them rather than bother with certifying old. I don't know if you could elect to pay the cost yourself for certification of the old system but that's what it may come to.

The problem, for the retailers!, with the older meters is they can actually slow down! Lots and lots of complaints when people changed to smart meters saying their bills went up (with no plan change) was due to this nasty little side effect for the consumer :P 

snnet:  You are right though, in regards to EV being pushed, our grid can't handle everyone charging their cars at night all at once.

The Transpower side of the grid can handle night time charging just fine because the grid is under-utilised at night (they released a paper saying so). Check the live data yourself & notice that presently loading almost halves overnight. On peak usage is already an issue without EV's in the mix, hence the 400kv power line upgrade in the Waikato, and soon the Cook Strait cable).

You repeat a technically correct but mischievous/deceptive argument against EV's (except the timing is usually @ 6pm) that is untrue in reality. The same point is also technically correct for kettles in that the grid also could not handle everyone switching on their kettles at the same time, but that isn't a problem in reality because we don't all switch on our kettles at the same time - our coffees don't occur in perfect unison and it's the same for flat EV's.

However, NZ generation can not cope long term with EV loading (or increased loading from any source - such as Fontera switch away from coal), because we are already running short due to population growth and de-investment/closure of power stations/banning log burners and soon due to banning natural gas.

In the UK power retailers are controlling customer loads (like EV) via web connections, so the necessity of appliance connectable meters is negated.

Edit: Link addition.