Save Some Power Dosh - What the Power Companies and PowerSwitch May Not Have Told you!

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1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3245400 6-Jun-2024 20:23

It's in the name, the ripple channel descriptions, and the pricing notes:

This option is only available to residential consumers. This is a
separately metered supply that allows WELL to control energy to
permanently wired appliances, such as hot water cylinders. All load
on this meter supply can be controlled by WELL. The supply can be
controlled at any time for a maximum of five hours in any 24 hour
period. This supply is only available to load permanently wired to a
separate meter/register. Refer to section 4.3.1 for eligibility for
controlled prices.

I don't have a ripple-controlled HWC and don't want to implement a ripple decoder from scratch, so unless you have evidence to the contrary, their legally binding statements seem pretty reasonable.

Orion (Canterbury) has a live status page with current and historical information on their ripple control.

Their non-binding guidelines are:

P1 Peak control
residential

Turned off during peaks and emergencies.
We aim to limit the time your hot water heating is
turned off to no more than 4 hours in any 8 hour
period, and no more than 8 hours per day.

P2 Peak control
business

Turned off during peaks and emergencies.
We aim to limit the time your hot water heating is
turned off to no more than 2 hours in any 5 hour
period, and no more than 6 hours per day.

As you can see, Orion is much more concerned about limiting demand than WE. Despite being closer to major generation, Canterbury and the upper south island (USI) are something of a dead-end and subject to significant winter demand. Wellington is in the middle of the big pipe from the dams down south up towards Auckland, so the marginal impacts of more load are much more minimal.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3245513 6-Jun-2024 23:13

SomeoneSomewhere:

This also cannot have any kind of 'bypass' or 'override' button that bypasses the ripple relay.

Fwiw Orion's ripple information includes a circuit overview which shows a bypass switch (!).

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3245514 6-Jun-2024 23:33

SomeoneSomewhere:

I don't have a ripple-controlled HWC and don't want to implement a ripple decoder from scratch, so unless you have evidence to the contrary, their legally binding statements seem pretty reasonable.

I have several years of separately metered data from Wellington Electricity for CN19. The data is metered power summed over every 30 minutes. When coupled with thermostats turning on and off its hard to be sure, but when I checked it my impression was there were few periods of 5 hours where the LCD power was off.

I've just programatically checked 4 1/2 months of data, in which there was no consecutive 5 hour period where power was not drawn over that time on the separately metered hot water register.

We have our showers in the morning when our hot water load is greatest. My data does not show many gaps when load control might be operating during the period most likely to have load control operational - as suggested by the cool Orion webpage.

The interesting Orion page you noted (thank you - credit to Orion!) clearly notes briefer periods of load control in the morning some days, and other days there is no load control e.g. 1-3 June 2024 - those days are consistent with my observation.

Wellington Electricity could be turning off the ripple control for brief periods and I might not know, but then you acknowledge Wellington's situation is different to Orion's.

The legal statements may be compatible with what I stated for Wellington Electricity, I've not reviewed those, I was not criticising the legal statements. Rather it was the information retailers tell (rather don't tell) consumers based on my experience. Others may have had better experiences.

I've provided information, its up to readers what they do with it. I was promoting people consider having installed their own switching which they set up their own timing systems for, not a ripple decoder (which you could get installed by arrangement by your retailer if you wanted one.)

People with separate metered load control can check their own data, don't rely on mine!

From the pricing posts the economics in different lines companies regions plainly (surprisingly?) varies which is important to take into account. It might be the greatest opportunity to save is in the Wellington Electricity region.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3245792 7-Jun-2024 17:41

Interesting that Orion allow a bypass switch; there may be conditions attached. WELL would not be happy with that I believe.

As I said, no more than five hours per day. Where possible, they usually attempt to ensure these are non-consecutive, and as few hours as possible.

Note that Orion says they essentially never command off HWC in summer. While they can command off for up to 8 hours per day, they can only do four hours per 8 hours, giving the HWC time to recover.

The issue with a DIY timer is that it needs to be installed by a sparky, and failure tends to result in an expensive callout. The few hundred bucks upfront makes payback periods long. Ripple controls on the other hand are the lines company's property and responsibility.

We have a PLC monitoring tank temp and a shifting target temperature depending on time of day, but that is very much not practical for most of the population.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3245809 7-Jun-2024 20:15

SomeoneSomewhere:

...WELL would not be happy with that I believe.

...The few hundred bucks upfront makes payback periods long....

To be sure with "WELL" are you referring to Waikato or Wellington?

Based on actual data my estimates of the payback period for me will be less than two years.

When one is looking at typically close to double digit payback periods for solar this seems like low hanging fruit, not at all long in my book.

Sure a failure might cost more, once properly installed by a sparkie electrical mains kit of this sort is expected to work for many years.

The bigger risk of failure imo will be on the timer control side, which many people here would manage without need for call out.

I acknowledge what I propose is somewhat techie...but ummm....this IS the geekzone DIY list.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3245810 7-Jun-2024 20:22

Wellington Electricity Lines Limited.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3245878 8-Jun-2024 08:54

SomeoneSomewhere:

...WELL would not be happy with that I believe.

Wellington Electricity may not "be happy" but the concept in the OP would "bypass" any obvious cause for unhappiness.

The concept is the hot water is now powered from the uncontrolled metered register during off peak times that the consumer controls.

No ripple control in the loop, bypass of any ripple device is made irrelevant.

In that setting its no more a bypass than any other consumer controlled switch. Do WELL get unhappy when you turn on your vacuum cleaner?

WELL may be unhappy about the loss of Load Control under their control, but WELL have a contribution to setting up the retail electricity market in Wellington, and consumers are entitled to make choices.

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SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3245935 8-Jun-2024 09:43

You're being disingenuous; that is not in the slightest what I stated.

If you take the HWC off the ripple control, you lose the discount. Yes, it's cheaper to have the HWC on DIY night only than on 19-hour ripple. But if you want the 16+ hours per day with no gaps longer than a few hours, ripple will be cheaper than a timer.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3245943 8-Jun-2024 10:36

Ummm what discount? 12.151 is the cheapest rate. Nothing disingenuous here. Maybe insufficiently spelled out, but nothing more.

I am saying consumers (who can set it up) should use the off peak uncontrolled UN24 during the off peak times - 24 hours weekends and 16 hours weekdays and of course avoid the peak rate times.

I am also saying (based on measured data) paying for 16+ hours is also paying for more power than is needed.

I am saying the cheapest approach for consumers with a domestic hot water consumption pattern would be timer on for 2 off peak hours in the afternoons e.g. 3 pm to 5 pm and on again 5 am to 7 am.

This won't work so well for peoples with rates with reverse relativity, so far it seems this is best in the Wellington Electricity WELL region - as no one has yet posted rates from another region showing the same price relativity.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3245945 8-Jun-2024 10:46

On overnight and with an afternoon boost may be sufficient for your household. It's not universal. Compared to operating at peak time, or is still a discount.

For most households, the chosen plan is still a non-time-of-use UC24 plan. In that context, the discount for ripple control is significant, and it is a 'lazy' option that doesn't risk not having hot water available unexpectedly

muppet

2566 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#3245993 8-Jun-2024 10:50

Hinko:
I am saying the cheapest approach for consumers with a domestic hot water consumption pattern would be timer on for 2 off peak hours in the afternoons e.g. 3 pm to 5 pm and on again 5 am to 7 am.

I must be super dense but why would I put my hot water on a timer when my controlled rate (which my hot water is using) is cheap 24/7? Are you suggesting that it's cheaper to heat it just before it's needed vs leaving it on all the time to stay at temp?

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3245995 8-Jun-2024 11:09

If you heat it only overnight, it will still stay hot for the whole day - it takes several days to cool down naturally without use

If you only use a minimal amount of hot water (a few adults showering, not kids/teenagers and baths), then the hot water you use shouldn't be enough to deplete the tank in one day.

However, that can be a lot of 'if'. It also depends on other hot water loads - for example, whether your dishwasher or washing machine heat their own water or use hot water.

The Spouse Acceptance Factor of unexpectedly running out of hot water, hitting the boost button (if you have one), and waiting an hour, is rather low.

Ripple control gives you a moderate discount in exchange for 'just works'. And if you're wired with all inclusive meeting, you get a discount on all your power, not just the HWC power.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3245996 8-Jun-2024 11:10

muppet:
Hinko:
I am saying the cheapest approach for consumers with a domestic hot water consumption pattern would be timer on for 2 off peak hours in the afternoons e.g. 3 pm to 5 pm and on again 5 am to 7 am.

I must be super dense but why would I put my hot water on a timer when my controlled rate (which my hot water is using) is cheap 24/7? Are you suggesting that it's cheaper to heat it just before it's needed vs leaving it on all the time to stay at temp?

I kind of misread your post. They're complaining that the 19-hour HWC rate is still more expensive than the overnight power rate.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3246003 8-Jun-2024 11:48

muppet:
Hinko:

I am saying the cheapest approach for consumers with a domestic hot water consumption pattern would be timer on for 2 off peak hours in the afternoons e.g. 3 pm to 5 pm and on again 5 am to 7 am.

I must be super dense but why would I put my hot water on a timer when my controlled rate (which my hot water is using) is cheap 24/7? Are you suggesting that it's cheaper to heat it just before it's needed vs leaving it on all the time to stay at temp?

Not saying you are dense!

Yes for some people based on analysis of my half hourly data that is what I am saying.

As pointed out this won't apply for everyone, but it may well for some.

If you drain your hot water tank several times over a day this approach is less likely to work for you.

Also some timer systems have lots of programs and overrides so you can set it how you like. e.g. make it run for 2 hours every 8 hours over the weekends will still save you money.

If your having a shower and washing party turn it on for the 16 hour off peak period (or 24 hours) as you want. If your away for a few days, turn it off! If you set it up smart enuff you can turn it off remotely should you forget etc.

Its easy enough to check the family acceptance factor. Just manually turn your hot water off and on at times you consider worth trying using its switch, and see whether anyone notices! If you have a separately metered water circuit you can test what I am saying with your data. Do let us know!

raytaylor

4014 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#3246384 9-Jun-2024 00:36

Hinko:

Why am I sharing this information? I expect others will be interested how to reduce their power costs as well.

I thought this is pretty obvious information.

I am on the contact free 9-midnight plan.

I have the hot water cylinder on a timer because the local ripple control turns it on too early in the evening so I delay it until 9pm with a timer. I have also turned up the temperature so it can store more usable energy too. It looses about 1kwh of heat between midnight and 6am but now its hot enough so that it can loose 3.5kwh from midnight to 9pm and still be above 60 degrees.

I also have the heat pump come on from 9pm to midnight using its own timer.

And I had a timer installed on the breaker board and bought two night storage heaters on trademe.

We now wake up in the morning when its 1-2 degrees outside, the house is still nice and warm at 18 degrees because the storage heaters have been releasing that 15kwh of heat between midnight and 6am.

During the day, the HRV brings hot air from the attic down into the house to warm up the mass (furniture/etc) which then releases that heat into the evenings and thats super cheap to run so we dont need to turn on the heat pump in the evening until 9pm in winter.

But anyhow, i dont get what powerswitch has to do with ripple control.

Ray Taylor

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