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Handle9
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  #3323834 23-Dec-2024 20:39
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timmmay:

 

tweake:

 

its not normal even in colder climates (using USA as an example, europe does things different but they also don't use a lot of ducted systems afaik). its relatively new especially as usa keeps pushing for more efficient houses. the joe blog usa house still runs ducts under the floor or in the ceiling outside of the insulation. they are leaning its better to put it all inside the envelope, something we could do without having the many many decades of putting ducts in ceilings.

 

the insulation goes right under the roof, just like any normal cathedral ceiling that many many nz homes have. basically the whole house has cathedral ceiling, even tho it also has a normal flat ceiling as well.

 

 

Ah ok. I watched quite a few videos from the US when I was getting my ducted system installed, they made it sound like it was normal. It would add a lot of area to be heated if the insulation is way up near the roof, it doesn't sound worthwhile. I wonder how it's done in the states, maybe a false ceiling or something, but I guess it'd have to be pretty extreme weather to be worth it.

 

My other thought, on a floor level return vent, may still be worthwhile. Or just avoid the ducted system.

 

 

My house in Dubai has the HVAC as part of the design with rigid ductwork inside the building fabric and the plant in the ceiling of bathrooms. It adds a considerable amount onto the stud height, they are all around 3.5 metres with false ceilings for the duct work. It makes sense here where the temperatures are more extreme, New Zealand is temperate so adding that much extra space onto the build doesn't make much sense.




tweake
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  #3323896 23-Dec-2024 21:45
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timmmay:

 

Ah ok. I watched quite a few videos from the US when I was getting my ducted system installed, they made it sound like it was normal. It would add a lot of area to be heated if the insulation is way up near the roof, it doesn't sound worthwhile. I wonder how it's done in the states, maybe a false ceiling or something, but I guess it'd have to be pretty extreme weather to be worth it.

 

My other thought, on a floor level return vent, may still be worthwhile. Or just avoid the ducted system.

 

 

air doesn't hold a lot of heat. its more but not huge and they often don't condition it perfectly.

 

in a lot of usa houses its easier to do because they have sheathed roofs and walls (something they are doing more of here). so it adds minimal cost and most of that is making it airtight. the other advantage is its now a good space for things.

 

the other way sometimes done is to make a tunnel. eg you box out the center of all the trusses and have everything in that, and the insulation is flat on the ceiling and around the box. 

 

edit: to add the main thing they have to do is join the roof sheathing up with the wall sheathing. a bit more osb/ply and labor. and getting those connection points airtight.


Blurtie

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  #3324068 24-Dec-2024 08:50
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Handle9: The reason to include things like heating in the build contract is it provides clear responsibilty and leaves the coordination headaches with the builder. If the builder hasn't sized the trusses for the ducted unit it's their problem to fix. If the installer cuts a hole in the ceiling in the wrong place and there is repair work required it's the builders problem to fix. He is responsible for coordination and project management and any delays or coordination problems are in his scope.

If you descope it then it's your problem. If the builder has to wait for your contractor he can claim a variation if he incurs costs, if something goes wrong in the DLP then you have to deal with the inevitable blaming of the your contractors by the builder.

If you have the skills and the time you can save quite a lot of money but if you don't then pay the margin and save the headache. The hardest part of building is managing risk. That's why you pay the builder a margin so he can do that for you.

 

Thanks for this. We do have our own project manager working on this build - so would this be technically his headache to coordinate with the builder and installer? But yes, it does sound easier to just have it part of the build scope and leave it with the builder to sort/organise.




Blurtie

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  #3324103 24-Dec-2024 09:17
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Just to touch on the ducted heating comments - I should probably add that this is probably where I'm being a bit overkill on. 

 

The house has been designed to higher insulation standards than current building code -  R4.0 for walls, MaxRaft slab to R3.0, ceiling will be R7.0.. all with exterior GIB RAB board too. 

 

Our architect didn't think a full ducted system was necessary. But I liked the idea of whole house heating and cooling - along with a ventilation system - an integrated set and forget system is the intention. Might be a bias I have after living in many many substandard homes.


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  #3324119 24-Dec-2024 09:46
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The reason we got a ducted system was to get rid of oil heaters in the bedrooms which were annoying, remove the big heat pumps from the walls, and to cool bedrooms in summer. The cooling is super useful, I really appreciate it, particularly the north facing bedrooms but even the south facing bedrooms need it in summer. I guess even a highly insulated house will warm up when it's sunny - sun comes in the windows, and even with good insulation some heat will come through the walls.

 

If you can tolerate high wall units they're a lot simpler, and the small ones can be really quiet with a really low minimum power. I suspect they would be simpler to install before the house is finished - e.g. maybe you want your supply diffusers near the outside of the house but the iron / tiles will be in the way once it's put on.


Blurtie

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  #3324136 24-Dec-2024 10:58
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Yes, I think the cooling will be useful to have - particularly seeing recent reports of townhouses overheating, but again, might be getting a bit carried away as our house will be single level. Just one of those things where I want to get it right the first time and not have to worry about it later. 

 

There's also a possibility that we won't stay there for long and rent it out - so there's that to consider. 


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  #3324139 24-Dec-2024 11:13
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Maybe keep things simple if it might be rented out. If you don't have an objection to high wall / floor units I'd probably favor that way, maybe multi-split. If I did multi-split here I'd probably go for two units, one for the north facing rooms, one for south facing, not sure if that would be generally useful or not.


 
 
 

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tweake
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  #3324164 24-Dec-2024 11:59
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Blurtie:

 

Just to touch on the ducted heating comments - I should probably add that this is probably where I'm being a bit overkill on. 

 

The house has been designed to higher insulation standards than current building code -  R4.0 for walls, MaxRaft slab to R3.0, ceiling will be R7.0.. all with exterior GIB RAB board too. 

 

Our architect didn't think a full ducted system was necessary. But I liked the idea of whole house heating and cooling - along with a ventilation system - an integrated set and forget system is the intention. Might be a bias I have after living in many many substandard homes.

 

 

that sounds good to my ears.

 

sheath the roof, bring that RAB up to the roof line (look up monopoly framing) and you can lift the insulation up to the roof.

 

one of the issues with well insulated housing is often the heating/cooling loads in small rooms are so low its hard to get heat pumps small enough for those rooms. then you have oversized heat pumps and they don't run right. i have two myself and thats in medium insulated 3-4sqm rooms. using ducted for bedrooms/office is much better.

 

overheating houses is down to the poor design. kiwis love excessive glass to the point that they put strips of wood in front of the windows to shade them permanently. way to much solar gain.

 

the other advantage of ducted systems is being able to have a decent filter in it and actually clean the air. heat pumps have a mesh to stop the coils getting clogged up.

 

the other plus is the hallways get heated/cooled by the return air, something you don't get with heat pumps.

 

also with a RAB system your starting to get air tight enough that ERV ventilation become worthwhile.


cruxis
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  #3324176 24-Dec-2024 13:02
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If you going have some gardens, lay the some irrigation to get water to places before any Concrete goes over the top.


timmmay
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  #3324182 24-Dec-2024 13:34
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Another general thought - don't lay any pipes under concrete if you can avoid it, particularly water pipes. If a leak is found you have to dig up all the concrete or lay new pipes. Ask me how I know...


Blurtie

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  #3324191 24-Dec-2024 14:01
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timmmay:

 

Maybe keep things simple if it might be rented out. If you don't have an objection to high wall / floor units I'd probably favor that way, maybe multi-split. If I did multi-split here I'd probably go for two units, one for the north facing rooms, one for south facing, not sure if that would be generally useful or not.

 

 

Thanks - I'm struggling to separate out what's nice to have and what to keep simple/minimum if it's going to be a rental.. I would like to think that putting in these additional things would be more attractive to a tenant.. but perhaps I'm being a naive first landlord. 

 

The other side possibility is if we sell up in a few years rather than rent too.. or even a mix of renting it out first then selling... that's probably a whole other discussion


timmmay
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  #3324193 24-Dec-2024 14:07
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More attractive is one thing, willing to pay more for is another thing. Also everything needs to be maintained. Factoring in resale value I guess is a challenge. If you create a house you're happy to live in, others will probably be happy as well. I guess it's cost vs potential rental / sale return.


Blurtie

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  #3324194 24-Dec-2024 14:07
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tweake:

 

that sounds good to my ears.

 

sheath the roof, bring that RAB up to the roof line (look up monopoly framing) and you can lift the insulation up to the roof.

 

one of the issues with well insulated housing is often the heating/cooling loads in small rooms are so low its hard to get heat pumps small enough for those rooms. then you have oversized heat pumps and they don't run right. i have two myself and thats in medium insulated 3-4sqm rooms. using ducted for bedrooms/office is much better.

 

overheating houses is down to the poor design. kiwis love excessive glass to the point that they put strips of wood in front of the windows to shade them permanently. way to much solar gain.

 

the other advantage of ducted systems is being able to have a decent filter in it and actually clean the air. heat pumps have a mesh to stop the coils getting clogged up.

 

the other plus is the hallways get heated/cooled by the return air, something you don't get with heat pumps.

 

also with a RAB system your starting to get air tight enough that ERV ventilation become worthwhile.

 

 

 

 

Thanks - don't think sheathing the roof has been factored into our design. looks interesting, but any idea on what that would add to the costs to build? weary of requesting this change with our architect if it's going to blow out our costs..

 

Yes - I was looking into the Misti ducted heat pump system with lossnay.. or the Daiken alternative. 


  #3324249 24-Dec-2024 16:31
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timmmay:

 

Another general thought - don't lay any pipes under concrete if you can avoid it, particularly water pipes. If a leak is found you have to dig up all the concrete or lay new pipes. Ask me how I know...

 

 

if you can avoid it sure, if you cant, sleeve the pipes you wish to lay under concrete.

 

1, less likely to get a leak, and

 

2, if it does leak you pull the damaged pipe out and slide a new one in.

 

 

 

Same deal as running conduit for electrical/fibre/LV cables.


tweake
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  #3324254 24-Dec-2024 16:53
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Blurtie:

 

Thanks - don't think sheathing the roof has been factored into our design. looks interesting, but any idea on what that would add to the costs to build? weary of requesting this change with our architect if it's going to blow out our costs..

 

Yes - I was looking into the Misti ducted heat pump system with lossnay.. or the Daiken alternative. 

 

 

no idea on actual cost. its depends on house design etc. also you mentioned gib rab which is not what i call a great product. gib outside as a waterproofing layer ??? not sure how well that would work under a roof. there is another rab product which is fibre cement sheets. usa typically uses osb with a membrane. tho there is plywood versions as well. they use it for structural reasons as well.

 

its probably to late in the game to change things that much anyway. its the sort of thing you want to design the house around from day one. 


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