Vynco electrical gear quality ok?

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Vynco electrical gear quality ok?

1 | 2 | 3

snnet

1410 posts

Uber Geek

#2662814 25-Feb-2021 21:54

timmmay:

The single RCD thing was just my assumption based on knowing nothing.

@snnet what's the difference between an RCCB and RCBO? A quick google suggests RCCB is a residual current device but doesn't have overload protection (circuit breaker) whereas the RCBO has both RCD and a circuit breaker built in. An RCBO sounds better to me. Also sounds like an RCB with three separate circuit breakers (MCBs) after it would do a similar job?

Not sure if this is relevant, but we use Electric Kiwi and have a free hour of power a day so for an hour a day we put a lot of current through. Two big heat pumps, a fan heather, clothes drier, dish washer, hot water cylinder, maybe 50A.

My two quotes are:

$2700 company: Flush mount switchboard (PDL), upgrade to include MCBs and Vynco RCBOs and keep existing time clocks in their current configuration.
$1400 company: A new recessed distribution board will be installed (Vynco), complete with main switch, Vynco RCCB safety switches and MCB’s. Connection of all sub-circuits to new sub circuit protective devices.
The price difference is not as important to us as quality and longevity. Any thoughts?

Correct, an RCCB does not have overload protection - it only has residual current protection so a circuit breaker is required (in this case) for each circuit downstream from it. Having one double pole RCCB and three single pole circuit breakers after it will do the exact same job as a single RCBO, the only thing is the "nuisance tripping" factor meaning if one of those circuits has a residual current fault, you lose all three circuits while that RCCB is tripped - however - this is the standard normal installation method in NZ and you normally wouldn't expect to have a fault condition.

Some things can cause an RCBO/RCCB to trip like kettles that have a detachable base (sometimes moisture builds in the contacts on the base causing the RCCB/RCBO to operate, have seen similar with toasters, exterior lights filling with water....etc) -- just saying this so you're aware

An RCBO is typically a single pole (RCCBs take up two poles) and it is a combined RCD and breaker in one. They are useful for things that you don't want to be part of a common RCCB set for example, I use one for the communications cabinet in a retirement village I am undertaking at the moment - In each separate dwelling, I don't want other things to cause the cabinet to power down as it houses the nurse call systems etc for that dwelling, so I have it totally separate, but still protected.

$1400 is closer to what I would expect the cost to be for a switchboard upgrade as you have described, assuming there are no cables that need completely replacing etc.

Since the installation will still contain MCBs for things like oven, hob, hot water, heat pumps (things that are not required to be RCD protected and in fact are likely to trip an RCD) so I think the first quote you have is for RCBOs - individual RCDs/Breakers

Quality and longevity - between RCBOs and RCCBs, there really isn't much difference. I wouldn't expect you to experience constant faults - it's not normal. If you have things that you'd prefer did not lose power in the event of a separate circuit activating the RCCB, you could discuss having that particular circuit on an RCBO instead (like what I mentioned above about my job with comms cabinets)

Though I will mention again -- I'm pretty sure the contractor in the cheaper quote could use a better brand for the same price (my wholesaler will sell vynco and schneider to me at the same rate -- and it's based on the "cheaper" vynco pricing, they alter other brands for me), for reasons I'd mentioned in earlier posts. It doesn't happen on every board but it happens and can be annoying having to turn breakers off and back on to get the power back to circuits

Hopefully that helps - and I haven't thrown a spanner in the works!

timmmay

20581 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2662818 25-Feb-2021 22:07

Thanks that's very useful. Just so I fully understand, are you saying that sometimes a Vynco RCD will trip and you have to turn off all of the MCDs connected to it, or are you saying something trips and you have to turn off all the electricity to everything in the house then turn it back on again?

SomeoneSomewhere

1804 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2662824 25-Feb-2021 22:38

If an RCCB trips, it cuts supply to the (up to) three circuits it feeds, even if only one is faulty.

You can in most cases remove the faulty appliance and switch it back on.

If it's a fault in something hardwired that you can't switch off, you need to turn off that whole circuit before switching the RCCB back on, or it will trip immediately.

Certain faults (some neutral-earth faults) will be picked up by the RCCB whether or not the circuit is on, so you can't use any of the three circuits without fixing the fault.

This is pretty rare.

richms

28189 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2662825 25-Feb-2021 22:40

SomeoneSomewhere:

Certain faults (some neutral-earth faults) will be picked up by the RCCB whether or not the circuit is on, so you can't use any of the three circuits without fixing the fault.

This is pretty rare.

The one I know of that happened was some stupidly installed garden lights that went underwater in a storm making half the house not able to have power. For that reason I have many seperate circuits for my outdoor lighting, and they are not shared with anything I care about inside.

Richard rich.ms

timmmay

20581 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2662857 26-Feb-2021 07:20

So an RCBO is better, but RCCB with breakers after it is fine if properly designed. I wonder then if the more expensive quote is worthwhile. I might call the cheaper guy (who is well recommended and I liked) and have a chat about meter board material, changing brands, and RCBO vs RCCB.

Handle9

11394 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2662859 26-Feb-2021 07:23

How many times have you had an RCD or MCCB trip? You can overthink this stuff.

Most of the time good enough is good enough.

timmmay

20581 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2662861 26-Feb-2021 07:25

Handle9: How many times have you had an RCD or MCCB trip? You can overthink this stuff.

Most of the time good enough is good enough.

Fair call. I've never had one trip as the only one I have is in the bathroom. We did have one faulty circuit the dishwasher is on, electrician installed a new circuit but not sure if they actually fixed the old circuit that a few powerpoints are still using. I guess I'll find out when the RCDs are put in.

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

Handle9

11394 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2662866 26-Feb-2021 07:39

Yeah. The standard is enough to keep you safe and protect your appliances. If you have a load that is likely to trip, like Rich with his outdoor lights, then spending extra makes sense. If it's just for normal household use it doesn't really make sense to over invest.

Providing you have board space then you can always move circuits onto separate RCBOs if required. Personally I'd rather spend a small amount on extra board space and then add on where required than pump extra money into redundant RCBOs. Plastic is cheap, switchgear is expensive (relatively).

snnet

1410 posts

Uber Geek

#2663016 26-Feb-2021 10:00

timmmay: Thanks that's very useful. Just so I fully understand, are you saying that sometimes a Vynco RCD will trip and you have to turn off all of the MCDs connected to it, or are you saying something trips and you have to turn off all the electricity to everything in the house then turn it back on again?

Sorry, regarding tripping of some Vynco items it’s always been the actual MCB overloading due to too much power being drawn - the mechanism tends to trip inside the MCB but the switch sometimes will not flick down so you may not know which circuit is actually dead, and have to turn all breakers off and back on to get that particular circuit running again - I never had it with the RCCBs

Regarding RCCB vs RCBO I wouldn’t get too hung up on worrying about faults because as others have said it’s not a normal thing to happen. It’s just that sometimes when it does it can be slightly annoying - whether that’s worth the extra $1300 or not to you is up to you. I upgraded my own board as well as my mothers and several other family members’ - and I never went for RCBOs

timmmay

20581 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2663051 26-Feb-2021 10:38

snnet:
timmmay: Thanks that's very useful. Just so I fully understand, are you saying that sometimes a Vynco RCD will trip and you have to turn off all of the MCDs connected to it, or are you saying something trips and you have to turn off all the electricity to everything in the house then turn it back on again?

Sorry, regarding tripping of some Vynco items it’s always been the actual MCB overloading due to too much power being drawn - the mechanism tends to trip inside the MCB but the switch sometimes will not flick down so you may not know which circuit is actually dead, and have to turn all breakers off and back on to get that particular circuit running again - I never had it with the RCCBs

Regarding RCCB vs RCBO I wouldn’t get too hung up on worrying about faults because as others have said it’s not a normal thing to happen. It’s just that sometimes when it does it can be slightly annoying - whether that’s worth the extra $1300 or not to you is up to you. I upgraded my own board as well as my mothers and several other family members’ - and I never went for RCBOs

Ah, so low quality circuit breakers. Got it. Will talk to electrician, thanks :)

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3313811 28-Nov-2024 14:19

Great helpful discussion peoples! I'm facing similar decision of upgrading 20 slots to create capacity for future options (smart contactor control of hot water, heat pump(s), EV charging and Solar) in a very space constrained situation, maybe to a total of ~60 slots.

Seems to me a hybrid switchgear approach might be economic sweet spot, that is use individual RCBO's for the "water risk" circuits like kitchen, bathrooms, garage and exterior, with the lower risk circuits in dry rooms (bedrooms and lounge etc) using the cheaper triple approach with 63A RCD's and 3 RCDs.

Still grappling with the plastic vs metal question (case and cover have their own issues) in a place where direct sunlight shines hot. Painting plastic with acrylic white paint seems an option worth considering, as it continues to reflect most of the suns heat, yet protects the plastic from UV degradation. The cutout inset size I want is available in plastic but not metal that I can find. Thinking about adding a 2 x 20 plastic box to complement the existing 20 slots, and probably turn the existing 20 slots into a sub board with the new 40 slots close by and feeding the 20 subbie.

Be nice to upgrade to 3 phase, not sure if such a configuration might be adapted to 3 phase, I expect it could but would not be as neat and tidy as a 3 row board. Hmm maybe could be adapted to 3 phase as it would have 3 rows, just one split away! Cost of 3 phase upgrade seems unattractive but really comes down to whether can keep within single phase 63A supply load using remotely controlled contactors to ensure load is managed (as without contactors the future full loads might pretty much double the 63A supply constraint!).

SomeoneSomewhere

1804 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3313821 28-Nov-2024 15:05

RCBOs are considerably easier to wire and take up less space than the RCD+MCB option. There really isn't much price difference once you start including labour in the costings.

Three phase works fine with either option.

Single phase load shedding equipment is available like this or this, and I think there's an ABB equivalent. Finding one could be hard, though.

Use normally closed contactors if you do use separate contactors, so that the contactor doesn't need to be powered 24/7.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3313903 28-Nov-2024 18:18

SomeoneSomewhere:

RCBOs are considerably easier to wire and take up less space than the RCD+MCB option. There really isn't much price difference once you start including labour in the costings.

....

Single phase load shedding equipment is available like this or this, and I think there's an ABB equivalent. Finding one could be hard, though.

Use normally closed contactors if you do use separate contactors, so that the contactor doesn't need to be powered 24/7.

Hey Some Dude as you've taken some care replying the contactor I am looking at using is NO, this: Schneider A9C21132 25a-2no-24v-50hz-mo-contact which seem largely unknown in the NZ market. For my use it will be off more than on, so I am presuming the amount of power it uses on is the consideration determining NO or NC? The contactor is interesting with a manual override to cover the expected occasional control system issues, failures etc.

The load shedding gear indicted I was unaware of, supply issues noted, beyond that they seem assemblies of contactors which work on actual load values. I am not sure I need that, as a hot water system is either on (thermostats make available to be on!) or not, and individual contactors can also be selected with higher load ratings. Am I missing something? I suppose I am in that when a hot water system is off by the thermostat alternative systems can be on for longer periods, e.g. owner controlled EV charging.

Your information supporting RCBO's persuades me to do as you say (and just use RCBO's on every circuit), unless other information has been overlooked, minimising the amount of outage from RCD issues is a consideration for me.

SomeoneSomewhere

1804 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3313926 28-Nov-2024 19:43

Yeah, you want the contactor to have the coil powered for the minimum amount of time. 'Typical' load shedding systems usually have the load on 98% of the time, so you only want to power the coil for the 2% of the time when you need to shed load. If the contactor is actually controlling the load in normal use, not just cutting power to it, then an NO contactor could be suitable.

In the example of a hot water system, typically the cylinder would be powered near 24/7 (and thus the contactor closed) but the thermostat inside the cylinder is mostly off. The equipment controlling the contactor generally doesn't know what state the thermostat is in.

If you don't have a load-shed controller like that, you'll need a separate current meter/adjustable current switch and control electronics (certainly possible) to control the contactors. Dead reckoning (i.e. looking at 'on' or 'off' of known big loads) is unlikely to be effective, especially with variable-capacity aircon. You'd have to be very conservative with the configuration.

The only reason to go with RCD+MCBs is parts cost. Everything else favours RCBO.

1 | 2 | 3