Infra-red heating suggestions or alternate options.

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#2666797 2-Mar-2021 14:59

Eva888:
@scott3 My own heat pump is at 2.49m height with over another 1.5m above that. Just measured it. A beam below impedes it going much lower. There is no wall/floor space to add a floor unit unfortunately. Walls are approx 70mil thick. I thought to ask the installer if I can get a bigger unit here and install mine at the flats. I really dread the idea of the noise of a larger unit.

In one of our old place with this setup with roof and wood wall too, we notice when changing a high light bulb that it was hot - I mean 40+ hot up the top, and cool at floor level, so we got a fan and point it up at the highest spot and turned on, and within about 5 minutes it was a nice temperature at floor level - have you tried this?

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2666825 2-Mar-2021 16:19

Yeah, stratification is a major issue with really high ceilings. This is one of the cases where radiant heating comes close to heat pumps because it essentially doesn't waste energy on the top half of the room. However, as noted the Act doesn't allow you to use them if you need more than 2.4kW.

Larger heat pumps aren't necessarily much more noisy unless you start dealing with the big commercial ones.

Get a ceiling fan.

CokemonZ

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#2666901 2-Mar-2021 17:48

Agreed with the ceiling fan comment. We have vaulted ceilings and with the fan on (winter mode so we don't feel the breeze) nice and toasty. Makes a huge difference compared to highwall heatpump alone.

Eva888

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#2666913 2-Mar-2021 18:39

CokemonZ: Agreed with the ceiling fan comment. We have vaulted ceilings and with the fan on (winter mode so we don't feel the breeze) nice and toasty. Makes a huge difference compared to highwall heatpump alone.

I can’t see where I could put one in my set up mainly because the wiring would have to be face fixed on the ceiling and taken from an existing light that is not centred. The pitch is about 32 degrees. The center of the room where one would go is almost 4 meters in the air. Ceiling fans hang down less than half a meter. It would be a hellish exercise to install at that height and no guarantee it would manage to push the air far enough down to the floor. It’s just a shame we can’t go ducted underfloor. My little $30 1500 watt fan heater has been the simplest answer so far.

Eva888

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#2666927 2-Mar-2021 19:14

bagheera:
Eva888:
@scott3 My own heat pump is at 2.49m height with over another 1.5m above that. Just measured it. A beam below impedes it going much lower. There is no wall/floor space to add a floor unit unfortunately. Walls are approx 70mil thick. I thought to ask the installer if I can get a bigger unit here and install mine at the flats. I really dread the idea of the noise of a larger unit.

In one of our old place with this setup with roof and wood wall too, we notice when changing a high light bulb that it was hot - I mean 40+ hot up the top, and cool at floor level, so we got a fan and point it up at the highest spot and turned on, and within about 5 minutes it was a nice temperature at floor level - have you tried this?

What size fan? That could be easier to try out. I could sit one on the beam which is half way up the wall, pointing up and see the effect. Will need to wait for a cold Southerly to try it.

timmmay

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#2666948 2-Mar-2021 20:37

It might be easier to get an thermometer (maybe a cheap IR thermometer from Jarcar?) and measure the temperature at say floor, 1m, 2m, 3m, 4m. If there's a significant difference then putting a big ceiling fan in will help.

I guess to try it out any kind of fan that gets air moving might help. I wonder if a standard floor fan, on the floor, pointing up, would make enough difference to bother with. Only one way to find out.

Scott3

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#2666965 2-Mar-2021 21:22

Eva888: Just spoke to our own installer. He informed me that the regulations have gone way over the top with regards to what’s expected. He told me about a place where the owner lived for years but now wanted to rent out and which had a perfectly adequate and newish heat pump, was required to upgrade it to12 kw because the lounge flowed on to other areas. Installer told him it was cheaper to close off areas with doors and spoil the open plan.

I’ve asked the installer to meet with me tomorrow to discuss options.

@scott3 My own heat pump is at 2.49m height with over another 1.5m above that. Just measured it. A beam below impedes it going much lower. There is no wall/floor space to add a floor unit unfortunately. Walls are approx 70mil thick. I thought to ask the installer if I can get a bigger unit here and install mine at the flats. I really dread the idea of the noise of a larger unit.

The 8k I mentioned is a rough estimate for 2 heat pumps not 1.

Sadly I will be forced to raise rentals as both rates and insurance have gone up considerably and adding expensive heating will tip the scales. I think it’s time to put them in the hands of a property manager so that we are removed from personally dealing with tenants. It’s sad that because of a few bad landlords and properties every one gets tarred with the same brush.

As with all broad brush regulations there are cases that are poorly served. The head load calculations are just an approximation, and dwellings with existing heat-pumps that just miss the threshold to top up with resistance heater are one example where the cost of compliance is high relative to the gain.

2.49m shouldn't be excessively high, but I can't comment on how the air is stratifying. If my R value for wood is correct, 70mm thick soft wood walls should be considered well insulating. Amount of windows you have is another factor.

Absolutely you can move you unit to a flat and have a new one installed in your location. Expect this to move to cost around $600, but get is quoted. It is what I would do. The modern R32 units are better than the units from just a few years ago.

Regarding noise, note that there is a lot of variation between brands. Might be an unfair comparison, but a family members Mitsubishi Electric heat-pump is way, way quieter than our 6 year old Panasonic (both cira 7 - 8kW). Also a bigger heat-pump likely means the compressor will be running slower most of the time, and you can likely get away with a lower fan setting on the indoor unit.

Best you think of your rental properties as a business, rather than a charity in my opinion. If this means appointing a manager, so be it. Charge market rent, but make sure you are in absolute compliance you your obligations.

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bagheera

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#2667017 2-Mar-2021 21:52

Eva888:

What size fan? That could be easier to try out. I could sit one on the beam which is half way up the wall, pointing up and see the effect. Will need to wait for a cold Southerly to try it.

a fan like this https://www.kmart.co.nz/product/40cm-pedestal-fan/2698824 point like the picture (turn off oscillating) - as much up as possible, you just want air movement which this get, pull the cold air on the floor up into the roof space, and the warm air comes down, find a spot where it causes the warm air to come down around where you are sitting and you get "warm" draft

Eva888

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#2667174 3-Mar-2021 09:39

I really like the idea of trying out a fan pointed upwards as it’s way easier than installing a ceiling fan if it doesn’t work. I can get access to the beam via a bench and the angle would be perfect. Wondering how much it would cool the warm air though.

I’ve heard that Mitsubishi are a quieter unit. Another friend has a Daikon which is incredibly warm and quiet but it’s a floor unit. Noise level is important to me as we sit very close under it and can drown out the TV.

As for running property as a charity, it’s been more a case of starting with very reasonable rents and never raising them as long as the tenant stayed. One of our previous couples invited us to meet their new baby in their home. It was a pleasure to know we gave them the chance to save and get their lives on track. When we were starting off we were helped along by an elderly man when no bank would lend to us for a business because we didn’t have collateral and I have never forgotten the opportunity he gave us. Let’s say it was a lesson in life.

It’s becoming too much now with all the regulations and the complexity of lease agreements so a property manager is becoming a necessity for us. I don’t see the sense in forcing expensive options on to landlords when cheaper plug in options can heat a home. 4K as opposed to a few hundred for a couple of decent heaters which a lot of homeowners use and most landlords would be happy to supply. Landlords will just raise rentals because of this and then everyone will be screaming about unaffordable housing when expensive regulations are driving this...but that’s a story for the politics thread as someone pointed out.

timmmay

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#2667193 3-Mar-2021 10:25

Don't go Fujitsu if you want a quiet indoor unit. It may have changed, our now 10 year old Fujitsu Nocria was really loud. The even older Daikin is much quieter. However, it they all make noise. Ducted units are quieter, but not useful unless you have a good ceiling / under floor space.

Panasonic outdoor units are really, really loud when cooling. I can stand by the Daikin or Fujitsu outdoor units and have to put my hand in front of it to see if it's going, and the Panasonic on heating is fairly quiet. But the Panasonic ducted on cooling you can easily hear 10 - 15 meters away. It sounds like a swam of huge bees.

bagheera

539 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2667253 3-Mar-2021 11:08

Eva888: I really like the idea of trying out a fan pointed upwards as it’s way easier than installing a ceiling fan if it doesn’t work. I can get access to the beam via a bench and the angle would be perfect. Wondering how much it would cool the warm air though.

The fan evens out the air temperature - what was happening for us, was the heat pump was not pulling air down from the high area down, so it blows hot air into the room, it, then it head up to the roof 4m up and stay there, slowly the hot air comes down to the sensor, and the top half of the room 20 - 40+c depending on how high up you are, and below that, it is still cold, by forcing air above the heat pump, it cause that hot air to move around, so you then get all of the air to the set temperature, not just the top 1/2 of the room.

richms

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#2667367 3-Mar-2021 14:15

Eva888: I really like the idea of trying out a fan pointed upwards as it’s way easier than installing a ceiling fan if it doesn’t work. I can get access to the beam via a bench and the angle would be perfect. Wondering how much it would cool the warm air though.

Fans dont cool air, they move it. You will be moving the warmer air back down so it will end up warmer.

Richard rich.ms

richms

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#2667368 3-Mar-2021 14:17

Eva888:

It’s becoming too much now with all the regulations and the complexity of lease agreements so a property manager is becoming a necessity for us. I don’t see the sense in forcing expensive options on to landlords when cheaper plug in options can heat a home. 4K as opposed to a few hundred for a couple of decent heaters which a lot of homeowners use and most landlords would be happy to supply. Landlords will just raise rentals because of this and then everyone will be screaming about unaffordable housing when expensive regulations are driving this...but that’s a story for the politics thread as someone pointed out.

Even with putting in the options, tenants will not use them. We put a heatpump in mums old house to rent it out, and there was nothing in the filters when they moved out, and the property inspection reports always said that the place was very cold. They just didnt heat it. Waste of money putting in the aircon for them. They also never aired the place out so thankfully the DVS did its thing and stopped most of the mustyness.

Richard rich.ms

Eva888

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#2667372 3-Mar-2021 14:25

bagheera:
Eva888: I really like the idea of trying out a fan pointed upwards as it’s way easier than installing a ceiling fan if it doesn’t work. I can get access to the beam via a bench and the angle would be perfect. Wondering how much it would cool the warm air though.

The fan evens out the air temperature - what was happening for us, was the heat pump was not pulling air down from the high area down, so it blows hot air into the room, it, then it head up to the roof 4m up and stay there, slowly the hot air comes down to the sensor, and the top half of the room 20 - 40+c depending on how high up you are, and below that, it is still cold, by forcing air above the heat pump, it cause that hot air to move around, so you then get all of the air to the set temperature, not just the top 1/2 of the room.

Had the installer here and he has tweaked a few things for me under the house where he’s cut out some ducting that was going nowhere and re-directed it to a corner of the kitchen which means there will now be a stronger flow of air coming into the area than before. Unfortunately that’s as far as the ducting can reach. Will try that and see if it has helped although I suspect it’s not going to make a difference to where we sit under the highest part of the room. He said our pump runs up to 6kw and that getting a bigger unit means the inlet hole in the wall will be in the wrong place as the bigger unit is wider. I’m not so keen to cut another hole at this stage before exhausting all other options.

I’m keen to try the fan idea out when it’s colder and if it works then maybe arrange a more permanent fan installation.

He is also going to look at the flats next week since it appears we have no choice but to install heat pumps.

Thanks for all the input. I went from procrastination to action and fixed a few niggly things like that ducting.

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SomeoneSomewhere

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#2667465 3-Mar-2021 19:52

You should be able to re-use the hole; it just won't end up centred on the old unit's location as it's typically in one of the lower corners of the unit.

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