Aluminium window insulation

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2391 posts

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#2934629 26-Jun-2022 16:15

i hope your feeling better.

got reply from a pro, he says its not completely horrible. most ventilation systems hes tested (not mitsi) the fans can push air in against the heat pump fans ok. the question becomes how much ventilation flow does it drop when the heat pump is on.

imho that should be tuneable, hopefully they have the ventilation flow set when the heat pump is on, and you get more ventilation than needed when its off. if they havn't done that there is a risk of the house becoming negative pressure (ventilation pumping more air out than in) which we never want in nz conditions. (we always want a tad positive pressure, even with balanced systems).

if your new diagram is right it only has ventilation on two ducts (lounge?) and not the bed rooms (not good).

if there is no one way damper in the system then there is a good chance ventilation will back flow through the heat pump and short circuit to the ventilation out duct when the heat pump is not on.

also what needs to be considered is if the heat pump filters are in the heat pump unit, or in the return grills. you don't want ventilation air pushing back through a filter and pulling dust out of a filter. also filters are restrictions, especially when clogged up, and that effects how much air flow goes where.

what i would do first is go get some cheap temp/humidity gauges (or data logger if want to spend $$) and see what the temps/humidity is like and importantly how it changes over the week, how variable it is.

tweake

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#2934649 26-Jun-2022 17:28

just thinking a bit here.

if that heatpump has the single motor twin inlet setup you can use that to your advantage. one side get the ventilation out and the other side gets the in. need a couple of one way dampers.

so one damper gets placed between existing ventilation connection and the heat pump (this is on the heat pump return) and on the other heat pump return leg you move the ventilation leg to it, with a one way damper between the connection and the room.

clear as mud lol. this way when heat pump is off the ventilation exhaust air flow will go from one return leg and out (pulling from the room as one way stops it pulling through the heat pump), and the ventilation incoming air will go to the other leg and go through the heat pump as one way stops it going back down the return leg. (and it goes to all outlets). the one ways are closed which stops it short circuiting. when heat pump is on is it pulls open the one ways, the exhaust air will still work tho a tad reduced like it is now, but the incoming ventilation air would go into the other side and be pulled through the heat pump. you would get a bit more incoming ventilation flow and exhaust flow would be reduced a tad, resulting in a bit more positive pressure which is fine.

33coupe

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#2934662 26-Jun-2022 19:44

Thanks for the messages. I am a lot better thanks, only good things is losing 2-3kg which I've needed since Xmas, but I have been back on the naughty foods this weekend lol.

The filters I need to regularly clean are on the return vents, so you're saying that's no good?

So just to confirm I'm definitely not getting any fresh air to all of the rooms? The one the ducting is going to is the lounge, kitchen etc, not bedrooms.

Thanks for the explanation, sounds like a good option, although don't have any funds atm. I'll contact the installer and see what they say. Should have ventilation in all the rooms really.

When we were getting uneven heat in the rooms the installer did come around and adjust the airflow to make it more balanced, so hopefully that's one less thing to worry about?

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2934669 26-Jun-2022 20:16

filters on the returns is good. it just impacts ventilation flows a tad. not a major just something to keep in mind if you change the system around.

assuming your diagram is correct then you will not get fresh air around all the rooms, and that it will also impact heating of the lounge a bit. you have a whole house load of ventilation going down that one leg which could cool that flow a bit (depending on where return vents are etc). i'm taking a guess they may have done the old trick of plumbing the ventilation into the lounge ducts. so ventilation goes into the lounge then goes into the return and back into the heat pump. so you only get ventilation in other rooms if the heat pump is on (and even then is 2nd hand air). i prefer ventilation straight into bedrooms constantly because they tend to be the dampest.

it would be interesting to see how much air flow you can feel coming out of the vents when the heat pump is off.

however critical thing is the temp/humidity gauges (they are cheap). that info will help understand if the system is doing what its meant to be doing.

the other thing is finding out what core that lossnay unit has. you can pull the core out and see what its made off. if its plastic its an HRV, if its paper its an ERV. fingers crossed for plastic.

33coupe

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#2950006 3-Aug-2022 09:13

Sorry for the delay, I've just heard back from the installer

the way your system is set up is exactly the same as what it would be if it was a Mitsubishi ducted system.

'The supply side of the Lossnay gets the warm/cold air from the ducted system. You would have seen a 150mm insulated duct connected to the ducted system supply plenum. This is normal, when they are both on together the fresh air from outside goes through the lossnay and then through the ducted system. This way you are getting clean fresh air which then gets transferred into fresh warm/cold air depending on what setting you have the ducted system

You are able to use the lossnay by itself without needing the Daikijn ducted turned on.

The other reason we integrate the Lossnay to the ducted is so you don't have all these extra grilles throughout the house'

I didn't get confirmation that fresh air is going to ask rooms as per my question. What do you guys think?

There isn't much airflow when the heatpump is turned off, you can feel some air when you put your hand up close to the vent (guess this is why my original contact said to have the fan on heatpump going 24x7)

I've seen some temp / humidity gauges on AliExpress so will try and get them.

Might go up in roof over the weekend to check what the core is made of. Guessing it needs to be turned off before hand?

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2950296 3-Aug-2022 16:45

33coupe: Sorry for the delay, I've just heard back from the installer

the way your system is set up is exactly the same as what it would be if it was a Mitsubishi ducted system.

'The supply side of the Lossnay gets the warm/cold air from the ducted system. You would have seen a 150mm insulated duct connected to the ducted system supply plenum. This is normal, when they are both on together the fresh air from outside goes through the lossnay and then through the ducted system. This way you are getting clean fresh air which then gets transferred into fresh warm/cold air depending on what setting you have the ducted system

You are able to use the lossnay by itself without needing the Daikijn ducted turned on.

The other reason we integrate the Lossnay to the ducted is so you don't have all these extra grilles throughout the house'

I didn't get confirmation that fresh air is going to ask rooms as per my question. What do you guys think?

There isn't much airflow when the heatpump is turned off, you can feel some air when you put your hand up close to the vent (guess this is why my original contact said to have the fan on heatpump going 24x7)

I've seen some temp / humidity gauges on AliExpress so will try and get them.

Might go up in roof over the weekend to check what the core is made of. Guessing it needs to be turned off before hand?

On the surface i think they guy is talking salesman BS. I base that on it not being installed the same way as what mitsi promotes.

If i remember right from your diagrams the fresh air doesn't go through the heat pump as the air is piped in to the ducts after the heatpump, not before. The ventilation air also does not go through the heat pump and get heated/cooled, hes completely wrong on that point. It also would still have the problem of short circuiting some of the air flow back through the heat pump when heat pump is off (unless one way dampers are installed). Mitisi setup show that ventilation air goes into the heatpump before the heatpump (ventilation outlet to heatpump inlet) and the ventilation room pickup is separate, which requires one extra grill.

Many top end homes run separate ventilation and heating systems. that requires one extra grill per room, but you need more room for duct work.

There should not be as much air flow when heat pump is off (depending on fan settings a bit) because ventilation flow rate is typically a lot smaller than heating/cooling flow rate.

Temp/humidity gauges are ~$10 on TM if i recall right.

Have a look at the core, turn the fan off first. its really important for you to know what it is as that makes a big difference in how to run the house.

Jase2985

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#2950325 3-Aug-2022 17:33

https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/ventilation/solution.aspx

shows the lossnay before the heat pump, and all the lossany air going through the heat pump. Given the lossany only has about 100lps of air flow and the heat pump has many times that it explains the extra return on the heat pump.

the lossany shouldn't be bypassing the heat pump, if the heat pump is off it will just push all through the stationary fan. If it was integrated with a mitzi heat pump they will likely work together.

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tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2950374 3-Aug-2022 17:46

Jase2985:

https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/ventilation/solution.aspx

shows the lossnay before the heat pump, and all the lossany air going through the heat pump. Given the lossany only has about 100lps of air flow and the heat pump has many times that it explains the extra return on the heat pump.

the lossany shouldn't be bypassing the heat pump, if the heat pump is off it will just push all through the stationary fan. If it was integrated with a mitzi heat pump they will likely work together.

Absolutely.

i think with mitsi HP they are wired to each other and they will run together.

But if using a different brand and they are not running together, even with mitsi configuration the airflow could actually go backwoods through the return air filter. Air will take the easiest path. So you may need one way dampers on the return to make sure that can't happen and force the air to only go down the duct work.

33coupe

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#2950689 4-Aug-2022 14:49

Thanks for the replies and info, really great thanks.

I just went up there in my lunch break to double check my thoughts/drawings. And unless I'm really blind and missing something (lossnay ducting is quite hidden underneath ducted heatpump amongst other ducting) then I should be right.
The fresh air seems to go to kitchen/lounge only. Have emailed them installer back to check this.

Added a couple more pics inc core
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VsS2jGtvRjvszXuQA

This is embarrassing but I'm still not sure what type of core it is. It looks like paper, but felt hard like plastic when I touched it. Can't find the two different ones on Google either.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2950743 4-Aug-2022 18:01

33coupe:
Thanks for the replies and info, really great thanks.

I just went up there in my lunch break to double check my thoughts/drawings. And unless I'm really blind and missing something (lossnay ducting is quite hidden underneath ducted heatpump amongst other ducting) then I should be right.
The fresh air seems to go to kitchen/lounge only. Have emailed them installer back to check this.

Added a couple more pics inc core
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VsS2jGtvRjvszXuQA

This is embarrassing but I'm still not sure what type of core it is. It looks like paper, but felt hard like plastic when I touched it. Can't find the two different ones on Google either.

All info i can find indicates its an ERV core. i would think a call to mitsi could confirm that.

At the risk of speaking before i have all the data, the reason you need to know is that ERV keeps moisture in as well as heat. Basically it keeps outside temp and humidity out, and indoor heat and humidity in. Downside is that works against us when we want to get rid of excess moisture, as it keeps the moisture in. However your home may have enough air leakage, bath fan or kitchen hood use to keep the humidity down. This is why you need the temp/humidity gauges to tell whats happening. One of the building science pro's made the comment that they find (in usa) that most homes with ERV's need a dehumidifier.

That makes sense, HRV keeps the inside heat inside and you use the heating/cooling machine to maintain the temp. ERV does the same but also keeps indoor moisture inside and you use a dehumidifier machine to maintain humidity.

So how you run the house, and what with, is going to depend on what the temp/humidity gauges say.

33coupe

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#2962439 2-Sep-2022 16:55

Sorry for the delay, I've finally had the heatpump guy in.

He confirmed what my initial thoughts were with the setup. The fresh air is going to kitchen/lounge only, direct from lossnay. Then it goes to a return, back into heatpump, and into the other rooms.

He said it was done this way due to not having enough room between/around the trusses to set it up as per Mitsubishi recommendation. But this way is normal and still circulates the fresh air.

I said I wasn't overly impressed with it. He wasn't 100% what the core was made of, so I'll probs have to phone mitsi.

I've had a temp / humidity sensor going for 24 hours in one of the bedrooms (not getting lossnay direct), and humidity was around 54%.

A few hours ago I moved the sensor to the dining/lounge area where lossnay is going direct and it's giving me a very similar reading of 53% humidity.

In case it helps The lossnay has been on 24x7 on highest fan mode, the heatpump on lowest fan mode during the day 8am-9pm (or if temp drops too low then heating turned on), then auto set to 28 degrees between 9pm-midnight (3 hours free power), then 21 degrees between 00:05 and 8am.

I still feel a bit cheated, but am uncertain how much affect it has / will have.

Do you think I need to take this further? What else can be done?

Thanks

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2962444 2-Sep-2022 17:19

33coupe: Sorry for the delay, I've finally had the heatpump guy in.

He confirmed what my initial thoughts were with the setup. The fresh air is going to kitchen/lounge only, direct from lossnay. Then it goes to a return, back into heatpump, and into the other rooms.

He said it was done this way due to not having enough room between/around the trusses to set it up as per Mitsubishi recommendation. But this way is normal and still circulates the fresh air.

I said I wasn't overly impressed with it. He wasn't 100% what the core was made of, so I'll probs have to phone mitsi.

I've had a temp / humidity sensor going for 24 hours in one of the bedrooms (not getting lossnay direct), and humidity was around 54%.

A few hours ago I moved the sensor to the dining/lounge area where lossnay is going direct and it's giving me a very similar reading of 53% humidity.

In case it helps The lossnay has been on 24x7 on highest fan mode, the heatpump on lowest fan mode during the day 8am-9pm (or if temp drops too low then heating turned on), then auto set to 28 degrees between 9pm-midnight (3 hours free power), then 21 degrees between 00:05 and 8am.

I still feel a bit cheated, but am uncertain how much affect it has / will have.

Do you think I need to take this further? What else can be done?

Thanks

Most important is need to know the temps as well as the humidity, (as the humidity is related to the temps). also it pays to know what the outside temp humidity is as well.

Mid 50's is perfectly fine, so certainly no danger level. just keep track of it, especially in high humidity weather. eg when we start getting 23 degree days with 80%+ humidity. your just need to monitor what happens as the weather changes.

The whole point with the ventilation is what happens when the aircon is off, unless you remember to always run it or can program it to suit.

Was the heatpump guy the one who installed it?

33coupe

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#2962445 2-Sep-2022 17:48

Thanks for the quick reply.

The temps have average 21-22 thought last night and today.

Would you need another sensor to find out the outside humidity level?

I can turn the heatpump off altogether during the day and see what happens.

The funny thing is the guy that came today said you can turn the heatpump off and just use the lossnay, but my original contact said we should always have it on due to the larger ducting (300mm vs 150mm of the lossnay). He's since left the company and gone to Mitsubishi though so I'm a bit unsure

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#2962450 2-Sep-2022 18:17

33coupe: Thanks for the quick reply.

The temps have average 21-22 thought last night and today.

Would you need another sensor to find out the outside humidity level?

I can turn the heatpump off altogether during the day and see what happens.

The funny thing is the guy that came today said you can turn the heatpump off and just use the lossnay, but my original contact said we should always have it on due to the larger ducting (300mm vs 150mm of the lossnay). He's since left the company and gone to Mitsubishi though so I'm a bit unsure

The temp/humidity is fine. you can just put that gauge outside for 10 minutes and get an idea of what outside is. an outdoor gauge is good, even just reading off one of the local weather stations will get it close.

At the moment the weather means we are still heating, which lowers the humidity. once the weather warms up and we stop heating, then you should get a better idea of what the house humidity is doing.

With the lossney plumbed up like that, then no the heatpump must still run. They are basically doing a "dump the ventilation air by the heatpump intake and use the heatpump to distribute the air around". Which is okish as long as you know that. Without the heatpump your really only ventilating those two rooms.

I suspect the new guy is not familiar with the setup. how the core functions is a big deal. The excuse on the install sounds lame. from what i've seen on the pics, its should be straight forward.

If running the heatpump constantly is ok with you, i would just leave it as is. probably not worth the effort to tweak it (as much as i love doing that). But if you really want to run the lossnay with out the heatpump, then i would change it.

timmmay

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#2962453 2-Sep-2022 18:20

If the air is all recirculating via a ducted heat pump it probably doesn't matter much which rooms it goes into directly, it will make its way around. 54% humidity is fine. My office where I am right now is 58% and it feels fine.

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