Does this bill for installing an outside plug seem expensive

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#2939381 7-Jul-2022 20:08

blackjack17:

gregmcc:

I've allowed for a 33% markup on trade prices

I have never understood this.

Why should the tradie get to throw on a massive margin on wholesale goods? Even if the goods get delivered to the site.

It's not just trades, it's EVERY retail store, there are a lot of costs associated with running the business that don't make it in to the customer invoice, can you imagine a charge on every job for admin for ordering and paying the account where materials are purchased, lots of compliance costs like ACC, Tax, paying the accountant, the list goes on and on, that is what the markup covers.

At the end of the day there are a lot of bills to pay that are not directly related to the job at hand, and the business owner expects a profit from the business.

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#2939386 7-Jul-2022 20:22

gregmcc:
A quick look up of pricing on the gear used on this job, most of the items are slightly more expensive than the price I get gear for, except for the RCBO, the best price I could see was $123+GST, so overall looks like you got a pretty good price on materials (I've allowed for a 33% markup on trade prices), as far as the labour goes, 2.5 hours seems about right, keep in mind that it may seem "easy" from your point of view, but there could have been some challenges you just don't know about, additions/changes to existing an building can be troublesome and some of the labour will be travel there and back.

the labour rate for the Electrician seems about normal, there are higher and lower rates, the apprentice rate is a tad on the high side, overall I think you were charged a fair rate for the work preformed.

ECS advertise rcbos for $66+gst, is there a catch? https://express.ecsnz.com/en/abb-rcds.

2.5 hours might have been about right but there's little evidence that it would have taken 2 people.

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#2939390 7-Jul-2022 20:25

gregmcc:

Which is why we pay you an hourly rate. This hourly rate should include acc taxes, admin etc

And if you you are adding on this margin shouldn't it be transparent?

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#2939392 7-Jul-2022 20:31

blackjack17:

gregmcc:

Which is why we pay you an hourly rate. This hourly rate should include acc taxes, admin etc

And if you you are adding on this margin shouldn't it be transparent?

Do you require margin transparency from a dairy?

If you don't want to pay the margin supply the materials yourself.

gregmcc

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#2939394 7-Jul-2022 20:37

Bung:
gregmcc:

A quick look up of pricing on the gear used on this job, most of the items are slightly more expensive than the price I get gear for, except for the RCBO, the best price I could see was $123+GST, so overall looks like you got a pretty good price on materials (I've allowed for a 33% markup on trade prices), as far as the labour goes, 2.5 hours seems about right, keep in mind that it may seem "easy" from your point of view, but there could have been some challenges you just don't know about, additions/changes to existing an building can be troublesome and some of the labour will be travel there and back.

the labour rate for the Electrician seems about normal, there are higher and lower rates, the apprentice rate is a tad on the high side, overall I think you were charged a fair rate for the work preformed.

ECS advertise rcbos for $66+gst, is there a catch? https://express.ecsnz.com/en/abb-rcds.

2.5 hours might have been about right but there's little evidence that it would have taken 2 people.

I pulled my prices from JA Russell, I'm guessing the trade discount for this item hasn't been correctly adjusted for our account.

tweake

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#2939406 7-Jul-2022 21:30

blackjack17:

gregmcc:

I've allowed for a 33% markup on trade prices

I have never understood this.

Why should the tradie get to throw on a massive margin on wholesale goods? Even if the goods get delivered to the site.

without making profit on parts you would go broke extremely fast. you cannot make a living charging out an hourly rate doing small jobs.

end of the day the job will cost the customer the same amount even if the parts are sold at cost price, the labour rate goes up to compensate.

btw if you think that markup is big you have no idea on business. even for me i used to have 30% markup from trade, plus i would get anything from 20-40% discount off trade prices, and thats nothing for a lot of businesses out there. we just do not turn over enough product to be able to run low markups. thats one of the inefficiencies of nz small businesses.

Wheelbarrow01

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#2939469 7-Jul-2022 22:50

Here's my invoice for a similar job at my bach back in 2020.

I supplied and installed the TPS as I had the wall linings off to insulate. He connected the TPS to the sub main board in my sleepout, then he supplied & installed a circuit breaker, 1 double wall socket, and a fairly heavy duty outdoor caravan switch/socket.

As you can see, he didn't charge for mileage or the CoC (which he provided nonetheless).

Conversely, I contracted a different electrician in my home area to wire my new garage last year. I provided all the lights, switches & most of the cable. I also provided the trench & conduit with draw wire between the house and garage. That electrician sent his apprentice to do the job alone (@$75/hr - $5/hr more than the fully qualified electrician above with decades of experience!).

It took the apprentice 17 hours to complete - I wasn't happy and I remain of the opinion that a competent electrician could have done it in half that time.

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boosacnoodle

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#2939476 7-Jul-2022 23:33

Disconnected x3 two-way switches
Installed 5 smart switches
Replaced 2 bedroom power points with USB power points
Installed outdoor power point back to back

Electrician first hour - 1x $100/hr = $100
Electrician subsequent hours - 2x $75/hr = $150
Labour total: $250 (+GST)
Total invoice including all materials and GST was $566.

No mileage. No COC charge. No BS.

Sounds like you got ripped to me.

Bung

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#2939479 8-Jul-2022 00:43

Wheelbarrow01:
Here's my invoice for a similar job at my bach back in 2020.

Was there already an existing RCD?

insane

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#2939480 8-Jul-2022 01:11

Wheelbarrow01: .... That electrician sent his apprentice to do the job alone (@$75/hr - $5/hr more than the fully qualified electrician above with decades of experience!).

It took the apprentice 17 hours to complete - I wasn't happy and I remain of the opinion that a competent electrician could have done it in half that time.

Yeah that would hack me off too! I'm guessing these crews have enough work that only doing a single job per customer is seen to be a sustainable business model?

I thought any apprentice needed to be supervised and their work signed off by someone licenced? That feels a bit shady to me as the apprentice is surely not qualified to work solo?

The last sparky crew and plumbing crew that did work on my recent renovation were clearly tag-teaming the work and you could see the senior guys guiding and explaining why they did things a certain way - was great to watch.

Perhaps apprentices are just seen by some as cheap labour, knowing they will soon look for fully qualified wage elsewhere if there are no openings. And if you as the customer can fund their teaching moments, even better for them.

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#2939486 8-Jul-2022 04:59

boosacnoodle: Disconnected x3 two-way switches
Installed 5 smart switches
Replaced 2 bedroom power points with USB power points
Installed outdoor power point back to back

Electrician first hour - 1x $100/hr = $100
Electrician subsequent hours - 2x $75/hr = $150
Labour total: $250 (+GST)
Total invoice including all materials and GST was $566.

No mileage. No COC charge. No BS.

Sounds like you got ripped to me.

Should have been a CoC, installing a new power point is general risk work that REQUIRES a CoC by law

gregmcc

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#2939487 8-Jul-2022 05:05

insane:
Wheelbarrow01: .... That electrician sent his apprentice to do the job alone (@$75/hr - $5/hr more than the fully qualified electrician above with decades of experience!).

It took the apprentice 17 hours to complete - I wasn't happy and I remain of the opinion that a competent electrician could have done it in half that time.

Yeah that would hack me off too! I'm guessing these crews have enough work that only doing a single job per customer is seen to be a sustainable business model?

I thought any apprentice needed to be supervised and their work signed off by someone licenced? That feels a bit shady to me as the apprentice is surely not qualified to work solo?

The last sparky crew and plumbing crew that did work on my recent renovation were clearly tag-teaming the work and you could see the senior guys guiding and explaining why they did things a certain way - was great to watch.

Perhaps apprentices are just seen by some as cheap labour, knowing they will soon look for fully qualified wage elsewhere if there are no openings. And if you as the customer can fund their teaching moments, even better for them.

Apprentices are generally good for nothing when they start out, it take about 4 years to mold them in to a good electrician, unsupervised, it takes them a long time to get nothing done. (things like social media and such getting in the way of work )

There are various levels of apprentice supervision, it depends on competency of the apprentice, again this level of supervision is set at legislation level.

John19612

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#2939493 8-Jul-2022 07:38

gregmcc:

FYI a CoC is a mandated government document and required by law for any general or high risk electrical work, is there anything else you think should be built in to the labour charge, the sundarys?, the travel?, the power point? Not every job will require a CoC, low risk work such as repairs does not, so there would not be a CoC charge.

Simple fact is if you build the cost of things that may or may not be needed on a job in to the labour rate, you will price yourself off the market, the fair way is charge for things actually provided, a power point was needed and provided and charged for, a CoC was needed and provided and charge for.

Again, your argument simply doesn't hold water. Sundries, travel and parts are all unique to each job and should be charged accordingly. Whereas, virtually each job requires some form of compliance documentation, be it an ESC, CoC, or RoI (some of, or all, as necessary). The electrician has already charged labour for the time they spent conducting such tests as necessary to ensure that the work is safe in accordance with legislation. They will also be charging for the time it takes them to fill in the compliance documentation. To claim a separate charge for this is ethically bankrupt.

Daynger

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#2939852 8-Jul-2022 18:46

blackjack17:

gregmcc:

I've allowed for a 33% markup on trade prices

I have never understood this.

Why should the tradie get to throw on a massive margin on wholesale goods? Even if the goods get delivered to the site.

Have you ever purchased anything ever?

If you have, you have paid a markup on it from every point in the supply chain, the tradie is part of that supply chain.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2939859 8-Jul-2022 19:02

The more parts you use, the more wastage there is - you can't use every meter of cable. More rubbish to dispose of. Allowance for damage to parts that they cause and need to be replaced at their cost, or for mis-ordered parts that can't be returned or need to be restocked (& restocking fee paid). Someone needed to order it and/or collect it. That might not be time actually charged to you.

Likewise with the COC - did they write it out on your dime on your benchtop or in your drive, or did they do it at the end of the day/week? If the latter, the time wouldn't have been billed to you, hence the charge.

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