Problem of dishonest contractors

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#3156104 5-Nov-2023 10:43

Any plumber should be able to do a job that doesn't leak, there's no excuse for that. Whether it is the best choice of fittings and layout is another thing.

mattwnz

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#3156255 5-Nov-2023 15:09

Bung:

Any plumber should be able to do a job that doesn't leak, there's no excuse for that. Whether it is the best choice of fittings and layout is another thing.

In my case the black kitchen sink waste gasket between the bottom of the sink bowls and the connector are leaking. This is because the entire waste stack is coming up from the concrete slab is at a slight angle and not totally vertical. The pipework should be 90degrees with the slab surface, when it is at least a few degrees out, and visibly slanted. So the entire pipework between the sink and floor is also at a slight angle is putting uneven pressure on the rubber gasket at the bottom of the slink. Looks like silicon may have been used too. You can see the seal is not as compressed on one side and that is where it leaks form. The councils building inspectors during construction have photos showing the fault with the plumbing under that sink so it was there since installation, but they say that they aren't there for quality control and to make a complaint to the plumbing and drainlayers board about it. I have tried to get other plumbers in to fix it, but most don't want to fix another plumbers bad work, and others don't respond. So I have ended up blacklisting a lot of plumbers. I did get one who said he would come and look, but then he never showed up.

tweake

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#3156266 5-Nov-2023 16:05

mattwnz:

Bung:

Any plumber should be able to do a job that doesn't leak, there's no excuse for that. Whether it is the best choice of fittings and layout is another thing.

In my case the black kitchen sink waste gasket between the bottom of the sink bowls and the connector are leaking. This is because the entire waste stack is coming up from the concrete slab is at a slight angle and not totally vertical. The pipework should be 90degrees with the slab surface, when it is at least a few degrees out, and visibly slanted. So the entire pipework between the sink and floor is also at a slight angle is putting uneven pressure on the rubber gasket at the bottom of the slink. Looks like silicon may have been used too. You can see the seal is not as compressed on one side and that is where it leaks form. The councils building inspectors during construction have photos showing the fault with the plumbing under that sink so it was there since installation, but they say that they aren't there for quality control and to make a complaint to the plumbing and drainlayers board about it. I have tried to get other plumbers in to fix it, but most don't want to fix another plumbers bad work, and others don't respond. So I have ended up blacklisting a lot of plumbers. I did get one who said he would come and look, but then he never showed up.

they can probably fit some adjustable bends or flexi pipe to correct the miss alignment.

mattwnz

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#3156274 5-Nov-2023 16:35

On one side if the sink they did do that with one of these couplers but it is still too rigid https://tradedepot.co.nz/pipe-rubber-coupler-40mm/ Also not sure it is the is as durable long term as the proper PVC plumbing, or if that is even considered and acceptable method

Bung

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#3156380 5-Nov-2023 20:51

If the 40mm pipe hasn't been cut off too close to the concrete it could be straightened up with careful heating with a hot air gun. If you haven't done it before practise on a sample of the pipe.

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#3156393 5-Nov-2023 21:40

Handle9:

There’s nothing for them to tackle. It’s a business model problem not a regulatory problem.

Well, at the end of the day, if an industry continues to fail to function correctly, and adequately protect it's participants from unexpected failures, then it should be considered for regulation, esp when the domino effects of those larger companies is for many smaller companies who have done nothing wrong per se, other than supply works to the larger companies, get wiped out.

Even if not fully regulated, it could be considered mandatory for the largest of companies to adhere to a set of standards or behaviours that somewhat address these issues. ala the way that the commerce commission made a series of 'suggestions' for the Grocery chains NZ.

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#3156428 5-Nov-2023 22:49

networkn:
Handle9:

There’s nothing for them to tackle. It’s a business model problem not a regulatory problem.

Well, at the end of the day, if an industry continues to fail to function correctly, and adequately protect it's participants from unexpected failures, then it should be considered for regulation, esp when the domino effects of those larger companies is for many smaller companies who have done nothing wrong per se, other than supply works to the larger companies, get wiped out.

Even if not fully regulated, it could be considered mandatory for the largest of companies to adhere to a set of standards or behaviours that somewhat address these issues. ala the way that the commerce commission made a series of 'suggestions' for the Grocery chains NZ.

Good luck.

The CCA was meant to address a lot of these issues and it hasn’t. The fundamental problems of productivity and business models won’t get solved by regulation.

Geektastic

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#3156468 6-Nov-2023 06:51

Having worked in the property industry for a long time before moving here, I was amazed (and still am) at the seeming lack of professional independent supervision provided by the RICS members in the UK, as well as the seeming lack of genuine fixed price contracts.

If you have a fixed price, the contractor agrees to complete the specified work to the appropriate standard and for the exact price in the contract. If he finds it costs him 50% more because he costed it wrong, I’d expect him to foot that extra.

Here, they seem to simply expect the client to write another cheque.

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#3156469 6-Nov-2023 06:57

Geektastic: Having worked in the property industry for a long time before moving here, I was amazed (and still am) at the seeming lack of professional independent supervision provided by the RICS members in the UK, as well as the seeming lack of genuine fixed price contracts.

If you have a fixed price, the contractor agrees to complete the specified work to the appropriate standard and for the exact price in the contract. If he finds it costs him 50% more because he costed it wrong, I’d expect him to foot that extra.

Here, they seem to simply expect the client to write another cheque.

There is no such thing as a fixed price contract just as there is no such thing as a complete specification.

You can expect what you like, if you don't provide a complete specification and choose a contractor based on lowest conforming tender it's your bad luck.

Edit: I should probably add that it is quite literally imposible to provide a complete specification, I've never seen one anywhere in the world on a decently sized job. They are always a basis for design and pricing, not what gets built.

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#3156713 6-Nov-2023 15:21

@MikeAqua: ..., you need to do lots of due diligence. ... on the companies office website. Avoid people listed as banned directors. Avoid people who have been directors/shareholders of many struck off companies. ...

Can you please say more about this?

Is there a list of banned directors
How do you know if people have been directors / shareholders of many (struck off) companies?

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#3156870 7-Nov-2023 10:33

ANglEAUT:

@MikeAqua: ..., you need to do lots of due diligence. ... on the companies office website. Avoid people listed as banned directors. Avoid people who have been directors/shareholders of many struck off companies. ...

Can you please say more about this?

Is there a list of banned directors
How do you know if people have been directors / shareholders of many (struck off) companies?
TIA

As I said, the companies' office website. www.companies.govt.nz

Mike

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networkn

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#3157970 10-Nov-2023 11:36

Good luck.

The CCA was meant to address a lot of these issues and it hasn’t. The fundamental problems of productivity and business models won’t get solved by regulation.

What a great attitude! I guess we should do nothing and 'hope' really really hard for things to improve! Perhaps we could send hopes and prayers!

As long as the consequences continue to be negligible for the worst perpetrators of failures in the building industry, there is no incentive to change anything. We can as a country, just continue to tsk tsk.

The CGA is a valuable bit of legislation, but the disputes tribunal process only impacts those willing to comply. If you get a ruling in your favour and the person refuses to pay, the process to enforce this is ridiculous. There needs to be a hand off at time of ruling, to an enforcement agency.

Handle9

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#3158080 10-Nov-2023 15:34

networkn:

Good luck.

The CCA was meant to address a lot of these issues and it hasn’t. The fundamental problems of productivity and business models won’t get solved by regulation.

What a great attitude! I guess we should do nothing and 'hope' really really hard for things to improve! Perhaps we could send hopes and prayers!

As long as the consequences continue to be negligible for the worst perpetrators of failures in the building industry, there is no incentive to change anything. We can as a country, just continue to tsk tsk.

The CGA is a valuable bit of legislation, but the disputes tribunal process only impacts those willing to comply. If you get a ruling in your favour and the person refuses to pay, the process to enforce this is ridiculous. There needs to be a hand off at time of ruling, to an enforcement agency.

Read what I wrote again. I made no mention of the CGA.

networkn

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#3158092 10-Nov-2023 16:24

Handle9:

Read what I wrote again. I made no mention of the CGA.

My apologies, you are correct. Not the CGA (brain led me there since the topic was originally about dishonest contractors). I still maintain that an enforcement agency should be appointed to partner with Disputes Tribunal.

Having said that if I am reading correctly, the CCA was set up in 2002. Seemingly it doesn't seem to be effective and should potentially be revisited.

mattwnz

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#3158122 10-Nov-2023 20:56

networkn:

My apologies, you are correct. Not the CGA (brain led me there since the topic was originally about dishonest contractors). I still maintain that an enforcement agency should be appointed to partner with Disputes Tribunal.

Having said that if I am reading correctly, the CCA was set up in 2002. Seemingly it doesn't seem to be effective and should potentially be revisited.

A lot of protection when it comes to building and services such as plumbing, seems to be under the CGA. Even though I understand you do have a automatic 10 years of implied warranties under the NZ building act when you build a new home, enforcing that, especially if they builder closes down their company, can be a nightmare. IMO NZ really needs a mandatory 10 year guarantee on new homes https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/check-your-builders-guarantee-27-master-build-policies-fall-through . Plus better organizations to police tradespeople and strict penalties. The LBP scheme with the code of ethics they have finally brought in is a good start, but doesn't cover all tradespeople.

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