Another table saw thread: B&D this time

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#3059197 4-Apr-2023 23:31

mdf: Best featherboard I've used: https://thangs.com/designer/Captain%20Konzept/3d-model/Fibonacci%20Fearherboard-51026

Really? I'd seen several YT videos of that style complaining that you can't make it stay in place, no matter how much you fiddle with it it tends to turn when you push timber past it and lose its effectiveness.

The two-roller guides, which are available cheaper on Ali, actually look quite good, they've got the cloning right so it has a 5 degree tilt to pull the wood into the fence as it moves forward. I'm thinking of getting the roller guides for the fence and a standard featherboard if necessary to prevent kickback for the table, although with the riving knife it shouldn't be so bad.

(My uncle was gutshot by kickback on a pre-safety-fittings era table saw, which is why I'm being especially careful in this regard).

neb

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#3059198 4-Apr-2023 23:33

Bung:
neb: The Bow featherboards look good but they're another thing that's relatively cheap in the US but outrageously expensive here, Amazon AU lists them at a reasonable price but they're marked as non-shippable to NZ once you try and add them to your cart.

Given that there's only about 2 degrees of separation between anyone living in NZ and about 600,000 Kiwis live in Australia can't you find a nephew of your neighbour's Auntie that lives in Melbourne?

They're almost certainly being dropshipped from Amazon US, so they probably won't ship to Australia either, the non-shippability once added rather than just being listed as permanently out of stock is a sign of that.

mdf

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#3059324 5-Apr-2023 12:22

neb:
mdf: Best featherboard I've used: https://thangs.com/designer/Captain%20Konzept/3d-model/Fibonacci%20Fearherboard-51026
Really? I'd seen several YT videos of that style complaining that you can't make it stay in place, no matter how much you fiddle with it it tends to turn when you push timber past it and lose its effectiveness. The two-roller guides, which are available cheaper on Ali, actually look quite good, they've got the cloning right so it has a 5 degree tilt to pull the wood into the fence as it moves forward. I'm thinking of getting the roller guides for the fence and a standard featherboard if necessary to prevent kickback for the table, although with the riving knife it shouldn't be so bad. (My uncle was gutshot by kickback on a pre-safety-fittings era table saw, which is why I'm being especially careful in this regard).

I find I don't use safety features unless they are either really easy or I am doing something super sketchy. I blame my upbringing and/or society, though it is definitely something becoming of significanty greater concern as Littlest Miss MDF is showing an interest in the workshop.

The spiral design (or hedgehog design if you want the original) is definitely easy to use, since you just give it a spin. I haven't done a PETG print of this design (which I suspect will be fine on its own) but on a PLA print I added a bit of sticky foam to the bottom and it seems fine. Joys of 3D printing lets you try different things much more cheaply. Though now having said that, maybe I do need to reconsider my own practices. PLA isn't that robust and could well shatter if given enough of a kick. Maybe not printing safety devices at home would be prudent.

Regardless of implementation, I can see your point that the hedgehog/spiral design might not be as stable as some other options. Depends on what you want it for though - seems good as an anti-kickback device, since anything coming the wrong way should automatically tighten it against the fence as the spiral gets bigger (haven't tested that first hand though). If you want a rock solid feed guide as you try and rip a 6m board on your own, yeah, something more robust might be in order.

Did your B&D saw come with anti-kickback pawls?

MikeAqua

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#3059326 5-Apr-2023 12:24

neb:

Anyone have any experience with roller guides rather than the usual feather boards? The Bow featherboards look good but they're another thing that's relatively cheap in the US but outrageously expensive here, Amazon AU lists them at a reasonable price but they're marked as non-shippable to NZ once you try and add them to your cart. Edited to add: Should probably point out that the linked clones don't have one-way bearings like the originals, so I meant something along those lines but not that exact model.

I'd suggest that without the one-way bearings these guides won't be that useful.

The guides do three things: -

Exert downward pressure;
Exert lateral pressure towards the fence; and
Prevent kickback

For (1) You are OK if the guide had reasonable downward pressure. This can also be achieved with a vertically mounted feather board, much more cheaply. (3) is utterly dependent on one-way bearings.

For (2) I suspect one-way bearings help. The wheels are trimmed slightly toward the fence. That means if you push the workpiece forward, you are pushing into the fence. It also means if you pull the workpiece back, you are pulling away from the fence. One-way bearing (I think) are providing resistance to the work piece pushing away from the fence.

I have a set of JessEmroller guides on my wish-list. Quite spendy though.

RE: Bow feather boards. Ali-Express does imitations for about $20/pair. I've no idea how good they are. The stiffness of the foam would be critical, I believe.

Edit: I haven't tried this, but I wonder if a vertical feather board was packed out from the fence at one end, if that could cause it to push the workpiece toward the fence.

Mike

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#3059344 5-Apr-2023 13:23

mdf:
Did your B&D saw come with anti-kickback pawls?

No, just a smooth blade guard. I haven't had a chance to look at it too closely to see whether it's possible they can be screwed onto the riving knife, but since 99% of what I'll be cutting is soft pine I'm not sure I want jagged teeth scraping along everything I put through it.

Ran across these earlier on, spring-loaded one-way wheels that press down on the item and only allow it to move forwards that looks like a cut-down version of the very expensive Jessem guides, downside is they don't have the 5 degree angle that moves the piece towards the fence but apart from that that sort of thing seems like a no-brainer to install.

neb

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#3059346 5-Apr-2023 13:28

MikeAqua:
I'd suggest that without the one-way bearings these guides won't be that useful.

In this case I was more interested in the fact that they'll reduce the amount of manoeuvring I need to do with the timber, if I've got something pushing down and towards the fence I can focus on moving it forward, and also have more leeway in terms of where I stand behind the saw. I can't get absolute safety but I can certainly reduce the imponderables considerably.

In any case even if they're not one-way, they will constrain any kickback to the horizontal plane so the piece is unlikely to fly up and hit me in the face if it occurs.

For your Jessems, have a look at the Ali versions I linked to, much more affordable particularly if you don't need all the whiz-bang Jessem put in theirs.

Edited to add: Do you have a link to the Bow clones on Ali? I never saw any when I looked, and can't find any now, probably needs the right search terms.

neb

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#3061378 11-Apr-2023 12:03

neb: Mother Neb's, 1980s I believe, kitchen is mostly done in that colour combination. I'll get her to pass on a message to Father Neb that people still appreciate it :-).

Just to help visualise, here's some photos of what it looks like when deployed at scale.

Had to use a flash for the photos because it was a heavy overcast day so the colours aren't 100% right.

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MikeAqua

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#3061419 11-Apr-2023 13:18

neb:
MikeAqua:

I'd suggest that without the one-way bearings these guides won't be that useful.

In this case I was more interested in the fact that they'll reduce the amount of manoeuvring I need to do with the timber, if I've got something pushing down and towards the fence I can focus on moving it forward, and also have more leeway in terms of where I stand behind the saw. I can't get absolute safety but I can certainly reduce the imponderables considerably. In any case even if they're not one-way, they will constrain any kickback to the horizontal plane so the piece is unlikely to fly up and hit me in the face if it occurs. For your Jessems, have a look at the Ali versions I linked to, much more affordable particularly if you don't need all the whiz-bang Jessem put in theirs. Edited to add: Do you have a link to the Bow clones on Ali? I never saw any when I looked, and can't find any now, probably needs the right search terms.

That makes sense. I often found myself wanting a third hand for feeding large sheets etc.

I re-checked Banggood at the weekend and it looks like these are now being offered with one-way rollers.

Something I like about a lot of the Banggood vendors is that they take feedback on board and respond. In this case probably easy to do by sourcing different bearings.

Mike

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#3061445 11-Apr-2023 14:20

I would not touch a cheap tablesaw. I bought my first one which was a tooline one, took it back the same day, no thank you.

Then went with a makita jobsite one, this was fine (about 4 years ago, so whatever model that was). fence wasnt best, but it was fine, any fence that just lock in at the front isnt great.

I then upgraded to a massive cabinet table saw (harvey one from woodworkinghq (stop trading)). its good, but massive. i went for this mostly for dados and super wide pieces, but dados I dont do often (I do do, but I could just route if needed and whide I could use tracksaw).

If i were to buy one today, I'd probably go with the dewalt one. better fence, not super wide rip capcity but wide enough.

If I couldnt afford the dewalt, i would by a moderate tracksaw. Tracksaws are awesome. can do a lot of the same things a table saw can, but are a low safer and easier to use (well, its harder to get a perfect cut like a table saw with a solid fence, but my wife is comfortable with tracksaw but not table saw).

Get a 90degree bracket thing for a tracksaw and that would make 90degrees cut a lot easier.

Even if you get a table saw a tracksaw is so good too, so makes sense to start with this. I often use my tracksaw to rip full sheets down, then table saw for repeatable final cuts and my mitre saw for repeatable cross cuts.

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#3061517 11-Apr-2023 15:27

My track saw (Makita 40v) cost more than my table saw. I couldn't find consistently good reviews of anything other than Festool (sorry about your wallet).

For anyone interested, the B&W table saw is locked from the front but clamps front and back. It has a connecting rod that runs through the fence. Correct adjustment of the rod is critical to keeping the fence square to the blade. Too loose and it will deflect away from the blade at the back. Too tight and fence won't move.

Mike

neb

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#3063438 13-Apr-2023 23:12

MikeAqua:
RE: Bow feather boards. Ali-Express does imitations for about $20/pair. I've no idea how good they are. The stiffness of the foam would be critical, I believe.

Found several listings for them on Ali after not finding any the first time I tried. In the end though I ordered some of the standard plastic-finger ones as a starter, they have the benefit that they push the item being cut against the fence so I only have to focus on pushing it forwards rather than both in and forwards. It's also a constant, steady pressure rather than potentially varying pressure if done by hand which could lead to the work item going out of kilter and the blade binding - I've been watching various scary YT videos on things to watch out for with a table saw.

Bung

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#3063443 13-Apr-2023 23:55

Foam fingers that are a consumable look like a liability. I've seen one reference to low stock being the result of the company being small. It could be absorbed into a bigger manufacturer or just disappear.

The roller guides shouldn't need one way bearings, the big thing is stopping anything climbing the rear of the blade. The original bird's beak push stick should be replaced with one that is better at holding the work down eg https://ibuildit.ca/projects/plywood-push-stick/

Jonathan Katz-Moses has a great ultra slow motion YT video on kick back.

neb

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#3063448 14-Apr-2023 00:18

Bung: The original bird's beak push stick should be replaced with one that is better at holding the work down eg https://ibuildit.ca/projects/plywood-push-stick/

I've seen a (probably) improved version of that that has an offset design so that, with narrow cuts, your hand is over the mitre fence rather than nearly over the blade. If you slip, you hit the fence, not the blade.

For the foam ones, the point is not to cut into the foam, in other words if you need to keep replacing the foam you're doing something wrong. And the advantage to that is that you don't end up with a mass of plastic shards being flung around as you would if you cut into a standard feather board.

neb

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#3064731 18-Apr-2023 00:19

It just occurred to me that this sanding block is effectively a push block with sandpaper clamps on it:

It's also potentially slightly safer than an all-plastic one because if you do run it into the saw blade the thin metal pieces will slow it down and let you know about it before the blade gets to where you're holding it.

Stu

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#3064750 18-Apr-2023 08:41

That's an excellent suggestion. And something already in the toolbox, so good to go. I also have two or three different sizes, from memory.

I've been watching YouTube videos such as this one:

People often mistake me for an adult because of my age.

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