Wellington Electricity Network - Ripple Load Control Failing to Turn Off

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Wellington Electricity Network - Ripple Load Control Failing to Turn Off - Request for Half Hour Meter Data

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234956 26-May-2024 17:56

SomeoneSomewhere:

Hinko:

In anticipation of the next question, the data is available here: https://www.emi.ea.govt.nz/Retail/Datasets/MarketStructure/ICPandMeteringDetails

I don't see a 60K figure there. These are dense CSVs, so presumably you did some wading through data.

Wellington Electricity seems to have roughly 93 ICPs with a CN-8 register, indicating controlled load, 8 hours.

LOL pardon me for laughing.

In your pursuit of trying to prove me wrong on something, really anything you've taken the bait, and all you've achieved so far is really shown readers your own limit!

You can add up the applicable cells manually and run the risk of getting it quite wrong, or you can do it programatically and count all relevant ICP's and cells.

This thread is not about this side show.

Its about helping people during a cost of living crisis get a fairer deal from the power retailers.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3234957 26-May-2024 18:00

You can add up the applicable cells manually and run the risk of getting it quite wrong, or you can do it programatically and count all relevant ICP's and cells.

My issue is I have no clue what you consider an 'applicable cell'.

All N-8 ICPs? IIRC >100K ICPs; can't be bothered re-sorting the table.

CN-8 ICPs? 39138 nationwide. If only 93 of those are in WE territory, then that shows that this is not a WE preferred configuration.

Did you find out whether you're listed as having an N-8 rate or a CN-8 register (look yourself up in the ICP register)? We used to have day night metering and are still listed as having X-D-16 and X-N-8 registers; that doesn't mean that any equipment was ever ripple-controlled off that rate, other than the day-night meter posted above - you expressed disbelief on page 2 that such a thing could have existed.

If you're just going to insult people you're really not going to get anywhere.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234959 26-May-2024 18:13

SomeoneSomewhere:

Note that this is not the same as an N-8 register, indicating uncontrolled load, meter reading for the 8 night hours, must be paired with a D-16 register code.

Yeah look thanks for that comment, I'd not thought about this aspect, even the people on the more recent N8/D16 configurations (vis-a-vis Night Boosters and Night Onlys), if also affected, would also have paid more because their rate is either statistically derived or time of use, either way they are pinged for more.

But if they are on one meter register they won't be able to show it so quite clearly and calculate the exact consequence, rather their position will be somewhat like the Flick graphs I posted up that also has amalgamated readings.

Still given a relatively stable use pattern a fair statistical consequence could be figured out.

PS if you want to audit my 60,000 figure you have all the information you need to do so, but you'll first need to re-read what the criteria were. I did write that too but you do need to process what I wrote!

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3234961 26-May-2024 18:22

Yeah look thanks for that comment, I'd not thought about this aspect, even the people on the more recent N8/D16 configurations (vis-a-vis Night Boosters and Night Onlys), if also affected, would also have paid more because their rate is either statistically derived or time of use, either way they are pinged for more.

I don't know where you got the idea that there's any statistical derivation; the whole point of day/night metering is to get a discount for being a customer that uses an unusual amount of power at night. That requires actual accurate metering, hence the two-rate meters.

If there are any ICPs that still have mechanical ripple-controlled D16/N8 meters, then being stuck on night mode would give them a significant discount, as all power would be metered at the cheaper (often half price or less) night rate. This is why the D16/N8 ripple channel has to fail to the 'night' position; because undercharging customers is OK but overcharging them is not.

I don't think N8 is more recent; it has long predated the existence of smart meters and I wouldn't be surprised if there are day/night metering setups that date back to the 70s. I believe we had it in the 90s.

This important distinction between CN8 and N8 is why I wrote this on the first page:

"Day/Night" metering is where you had two meter registers, Day, and Night. Note that it is listed in the decabit tables as 'two-rate metering', not as load control. It is essentially providing a time-switch service to allow the meters to switch which was recording usage.

I'm not sure that connecting loads to the 'D16/N8' channels was ever authorised or anticipated; they are not labelled as 'CN8'. By putting them on those channels, they can't be shed for emergencies or maintenance work even if that work is going on overnight. OTOH, load connected to 'NB10' and the various hot water heating channels can be shed at will. Other lines companies may well have different arrangements of metering and load control.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3234962 26-May-2024 18:30

PS if you want to audit my 60,000 figure you have all the information you need to do so, but you'll first need to re-read what the criteria were. I did write that too but you do need to process what I wrote!

It looks like you've simply grabbed the 67,699 ICPs fed from Central Park, Kaiwharawhara, and Wilton with no regard as to whether there is even ripple control equipment installed. If so, that's extremely disingenuous.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234964 26-May-2024 18:55

SomeoneSomewhere:

PS if you want to audit my 60,000 figure you have all the information you need to do so, but you'll first need to re-read what the criteria were. I did write that too but you do need to process what I wrote!

It looks like you've simply grabbed the 67,699 ICPs fed from Central Park, Kaiwharawhara, and Wilton with no regard as to whether there is even ripple control equipment installed. If so, that's extremely disingenuous.

Well dude, we agree what would be disingenuous. Yeah....nah thanks but I was not disingenuous!

I programatically counted the potentially relevant ICP's. I said the number was over 60,000. I didn't state the exact number because the exact number would change from day to day, and (shudder) the error rate in the electricity register is ummm shall we say not quite perfect? I think at least one post alluded to that issue. If the registry information is indicative so too is the count.

Fwiw people with analogue meters are unlikely to be able to meet the request of this thread (unless they are somehow logging their readings - no one's put their hand up for that yet!). However if they use ripple controlled devices on relevant channels they may still have paid more too.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235035 26-May-2024 19:49

I programatically counted the potentially relevant ICP's. I said the number was over 60,000. I didn't state the exact number because the exact number would change from day to day, and (shudder) the error rate in the electricity register is ummm shall we say not quite perfect? I think at least one post alluded to that issue. If the registry information is indicative so too is the count.

Sure, the exact number will change. Buy you still haven't said exactly what you consider 'potentially relevant'.

Anyone who does not have a ripple receiver is IMHO clearly not relevant - and that wipes out a rather large portion of the 67k ICPs in the WE southern area. So I assumed you must be looking at the N-8 or CN-8 figures nationwide - but neither of those matches.

Fwiw people with analogue meters are unlikely to be able to meet the request of this thread (unless they are somehow logging their readings - no one's put their hand up for that yet!). However if they use ripple controlled devices on relevant channels they may still have paid more too.

As I said on the second page:

If your hot water was on a dedicated meter (e.g. RSUTOU-NITE or -CTRL), you would be charged the special rate regardless of what time it ran at.

If your hot water was on a suitable ripple relay on an all inclusive rate (RSUTOU-AICO 2.82c) (not metered separately), then you get a discount on all your power for having the HWC controllable, regardless of what time the HWC is actually run at.

There is a hole if you are on an all-inclusive peak/off peak rate, (-P-AI 7.49c and -OP-AI 0.69c) as the consumption could move into peak territory.

Equinox IT

Cloud spending continues to surge globally, but most organisations haven’t made the changes necessary to maximise the value and cost-efficiency benefits of their cloud investments. Download the whitepaper From Overspend to Advantage now.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235039 26-May-2024 19:58

SomeoneSomewhere:

"Day/Night" metering is where you had two meter registers, Day, and Night. Note that it is listed in the decabit tables as 'two-rate metering', not as load control. It is essentially providing a time-switch service to allow the meters to switch which was recording usage.

I acknowledge the scenario you are painting here is one of many potential scenarios. While I've not seen full details of that scenario, I don't see it making any difference to the other affected people. Do you? Do you see the Power Companies asking them for more money to cover the error of the Power Companies?

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235040 26-May-2024 20:00

I addressed that a few posts ago:

If there are any ICPs that still have mechanical ripple-controlled D16/N8 meters, then being stuck on night mode would give them a significant discount, as all power would be metered at the cheaper (often half price or less) night rate. This is why the D16/N8 ripple channel has to fail to the 'night' position; because undercharging customers is OK but overcharging them is not.

My reason for bringing this up in the first place was your blatantly incorrect earlier post:

"Day/Night" is somewhat ambiguous (source of confusion) as it is a relatively new term that has been derived from the older N8 (=CN8) night separately metered ripple LCD (load controlled device) connections - but in some cases using a single meter to feed the same functioning 8 hour ripple controller

The table references "day-night rate metering" and says switching is provided on channels 50-53 and 55-58.

Day/night is a perfectly well defined metering term,
It is not 'relatively new'. It predates the current electricity market and I think even the concept of a 'lines company' in NZ.
N8 is very, very different to CN8

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235058 26-May-2024 20:42

SomeoneSomewhere:

My reason for bringing this up in the first place was your blatantly incorrect earlier post:

"Day/Night" is somewhat ambiguous (source of confusion) as it is a relatively new term that has been derived from the older N8 (=CN8) night separately metered ripple LCD (load controlled device) connections - but in some cases using a single meter to feed the same functioning 8 hour ripple controller

The table references "day-night rate metering" and says switching is provided on channels 50-53 and 55-58.

I stand by those statements as correct. The first is consistent with my experience. Re the table, anyone can read the Wellington Electricity chart and draw the same conclusions.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235060 26-May-2024 20:46

From the registry specification, p435.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235063 26-May-2024 20:57

SomeoneSomewhere:

Day/night is a perfectly well defined metering term,

The LCD on my meterboard has a relay biscuit essentially labelled as Day/Night, but the relay biscuit can be used in multiple ways, which creates ambiguity. For example it can also be used for the current "Night Only" mode which is my use case.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235064 26-May-2024 20:59

SomeoneSomewhere:

It is not 'relatively new'. It predates the current electricity market and I think even the concept of a 'lines company' in NZ.

Well it depends on your frame of reference. You may also be correct, I was thinking more of the even earlier original controlled load circuits that also predated all these things. Think power boards, ancient Zellweger LCD's, and single phase analogue meters here!

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235065 26-May-2024 21:01

Did you not see my picture of a single-phase analogue meter? This one may be labelled 2004 because that's the picture I could find online, but as I said earlier, I would not be surprised to find these had been around since the 50s-70s.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235066 26-May-2024 21:02

Hinko:

SomeoneSomewhere:

Day/night is a perfectly well defined metering term,

The LCD on my meterboard has a relay biscuit essentially labelled as Day/Night, but the relay biscuit can be used in multiple ways, which creates ambiguity. For example it can also be used for the current "Night Only" mode which is my use case.

And as I said on the very first page:

If you have controlled loads on RSUTOU-UC, you are on the wrong plan.

[...]

I'm not sure that connecting loads to the 'D16/N8' channels was ever authorised or anticipated; they are not labelled as 'CN8'. By putting them on those channels, they can't be shed for emergencies or maintenance work even if that work is going on overnight. OTOH, load connected to 'NB10' and the various hot water heating channels can be shed at will. Other lines companies may well have different arrangements of metering and load control.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7