Wellington Electricity Network - Ripple Load Control Failing to Turn Off

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Wellington Electricity Network - Ripple Load Control Failing to Turn Off - Request for Half Hour Meter Data

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#312856 23-May-2024 23:14

Anyone in the Wellington Electricity Region willing to share their half hour meter data for their Ripple Load Controlled consumption?

I am interested in half hour metered N8 and CN10 use.

Why? Because it seems a number of houses (myself included!) in the Southern 475 Hz ripple region failed to have their Enermet load control devices turn off at 07:00 on 4/9/23, 16/9/23, 27/9/23 28/9/23, 3/10/23, 4/10/23, 11/10/23, 28/10/23 and lastly 24/3/2024.

It seems Wellington Electricity do not monitor ripple signal levels at the consumer end, nor confirm switching off is occurring.

If this affects you it means you may well be paying extra for power on those days it fails to switch off when you did not agree to. Most people will not be aware of it so will be paying for power not agreed to be paid for.

There are over 60,000 ICP's potentially affected, hopefully some are reading this! It would help to know the extent of the problem.

Your separately metered load control data will confirm whether the off signal was sent to you on the referenced days (or other days?) by showing whether you were drawing power when you should not have been.

For N8 (OFF 07:00 to 23:00 = 8 hours on) and CN10 (OFF 07:00 to 13:00 and OFF 15:00 to 23:00 = 10 "Boosted" hours) load controlled periods there should be no significant power use between 07:30am and at least 1:00pm.

Ripple control is done by ON and OFF signals injected by 25 ripple signal injectors around the region. Information from people in the 1042-1050Hz regions - the NorthWest and NorthEast regions would be particularly helpful to confirm how much of Wellington has been affected on those days.

This should be sufficient for people to check their use data. The problem likely extends earlier than 4/9/2023 but I've not got that data.

Please message me if you are willing to share data or can contribute to sort this issue.

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273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234041 24-May-2024 08:20

Map of Indicative Ripple Frequencies

Source: https://www.welectricity.co.nz/assets/Ripple-control-signals-v3.1.pdf

Half hour meter read data from smart meters can be requested from power retailers and should be provided within 5 days.

nickb800

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#3234079 24-May-2024 09:32

Interesting problem. Are you near the boundary of one of the regions? I wonder if you were switched over to a different zone substation for a few hours in those instances, causing you to miss the ripple signal for your 'home' frequency.

I don't know the detailed typology of WE's network nor how they operate it, but I do know that in Kapiti there is the ability to switch some areas between different zone substations (for example, feeding Paekakariki off the Raumati substation, instead of the Paekakariki substation) with 11kv switches (some of which are remotely controlled). This doesn't cause ripple problems in our case, because the ripple is injected at the Transpower substation which feeds both zone substations - so you get the same ripple regardless of which zone substation you are fed from.

Bung

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#3234081 24-May-2024 09:39

The PDF you reference has a Note 3 that says Wellington Electricity does not offer Day/Night pricing.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234232 24-May-2024 12:08

Bung:

The PDF you reference has a Note 3 that says Wellington Electricity does not offer Day/Night pricing.

Thank you for raising this! This could be a subject split off into a separate thread.

Retailers providing N8 connections are presumably paying full price for these - so contrary to the Note 3 there is pricing applied.

"Day/Night" is somewhat ambiguous (source of confusion) as it is a relatively new term that has been derived from the older N8 (=CN8) night separately metered ripple LCD (load controlled device) connections - but in some cases using a single meter to feed the same functioning 8 hour ripple controller

The table references "day-night rate metering" and says switching is provided on channels 50-53 and 55-58.

It also references channels 20 and 29 which include the 8 night hours of the Day/Night component but also the additional "boost" period of 1 to 3pm to make the 10 hours.

I understand what is intended to be communicated is there is now no Day/Night discounting provided to retailers and potentially on to consumers.

Other lines companies continue to provide very discounted pricing for N8 metered ripple connections to the same group of retailers. (e.g. refer Powerco's published lines pricing)

Why does Wellington Electricity not discount the 8 night hours to retailers when they discount the same night hours AND also provide afternoon power as well, which will be more expensive.

Does that mean that Wellington Electricity is excessively profiting from the more than 8,000 N8 ICP's?

Particularly when compared with other lines companies is the Day/Night lines charges pricing a Cash Cow for Wellington Electricity?

Do people consider it reasonable that Wellington Electricity fed retailers and consumers should pay a full price premium for what is the cheapest power in the 24 hour period - that also includes the encumbrance that it is some of the first load to be switched off during power generation shortages and grid emergencies.

This was another reason for the discount was this power was not guaranteed and could be cut off to meet grid requirements. But Wellington Electricity retailers are not discounted for these N8 connections while regions are.

Is that fair and reasonable?

In these times of cost of living concerns and when other lines companies do, I consider it is unreasonable and unfair to consumers that Wellington Electricity do not discount the night channels they provide. In dual metered situations they presumably also charge full price on the 24 hour priority power.

Considering the double dip concept this seems to me a bit more than a fair single dip. Commonly it may be a one plus a third dip!

Am I alone in having these concerns?

nickb800

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#3234240 24-May-2024 12:24

My layman's understanding is that Transpower used to have a scheme (Regional Coincident Peak Demand) for Lower North Island lines companies to pay sort of surcharge for usage in peak periods (not a set time every day, but the few hours in a year which were driving the need for more transmission capacity). In turn, this incentivised lines companies to switch off loads in peak periods and reflect the cost of peak demand through their prices, although usually through a more simplified scheme for consumers (e.g. set peak hours every day of the year). Transpower ditched this scheme a few years ago as it wasn't closely connected to the actual cost of providing transmission. As a result, the only reason for lines companies to care about peak usage if if their network has a constraint (often around sub-transmission). If the lines company has an unconstrained network (like we do in Kapiti) then there is no incentive to switch off loads in peak periods nor maintain differential pricing like day/night.

In the case of Kapiti, the 'Controlled 20' ripple receivers are only turned off for a few hours per year - they are basically not needed except for national grid emergencies, but the lines company keeps offering discounted pricing - my guess is that they want to hold onto the system and its adoption in case they need it in future (if they hit constraints, or Transpower changes charging scheme).

In the case of WE*, if they want to stop offering a tariff, they choose to keep sending ripple signals even for obsolete categories because they don't know for certain how many ripple receivers are out there, where they are and what they are programmed to listen to. The alternatives are (1) pay to reconfigure meters/receivers at thousands of houses (and probably miss a few not recorded properly on the register) or (2) stop sending signals and some people's loads stop working until they complain and get reconfigured.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234270 24-May-2024 13:19

nickb800:

In the case of WE*, if they want to stop offering a tariff, they choose to keep sending ripple signals even for obsolete categories

Other lines companies and many thousands of consumers would seem to consider the 8 night hours of controlled night power as not yet obsolete.

nickb800:

because they don't know for certain how many ripple receivers are out there, where they are and what they are programmed to listen to.

There is a high level of detail available in the electricity register including the load control device configurations, number of meters etc that is public information. Anyone can check any address.(!) See https://www.emi.ea.govt.nz/Retail/Datasets/MarketStructure/ICPandMeteringDetails

That seems to me to be very useful data to anyone interested.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234271 24-May-2024 13:20

nickb800:

The alternatives are (1) pay to reconfigure meters/receivers at thousands of houses (and probably miss a few not recorded properly on the register) or (2) stop sending signals and some people's loads stop working until they complain and get reconfigured.

I anticipate option 2 would enjoy a landslide of adverse publicity that would not be sustainable with a prompt back track. Still these things happen!

I suggest WE's third and best option (3) is to resume pricing fairly, with fair price relativity, and charge consistent with their prices and the rest of New Zealand.

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SomeoneSomewhere

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#3234286 24-May-2024 13:46

While the register reflects what the lines companies believe is present, it's just that - a register. It doesn't reflect changes that don't get correctly reported to it. For example, a sparky or plumber bypasses a faulty ripple relay, or rebuilds/relocates the switchboard without including the old relay. Perhaps the HWC is replaced with gas hot water. The old nightstore heater is removed. There are also a lot of relays thought to have failed closed, and there is no practical way to detect this without going and doing an in-person audit of them all.

It is very much not authoritative; it's just the basis of the revenue system.

Lines company pricing is fairly heavily regulated. If you read the several hundred pages in the pricing section of their website, particularly the pricing methodology, you'll probably find answers. I believe they have statutory requirements to avoid cross-subsidisation, which is probably the 'cash cow' you're talking about.

Different lines companies with different networks have need of very different pricing structures. Wellington has a large number of GXPs very close to most loads, so sub-transmission distance and constraints are relatively minimal (although I believe TKR is approaching redundant capacity, when combined with Pauatahanui). Rural lines companies that might be looking at re-stringing hundreds of km of 11kV lines or doing voltage upgrades might be a bit more concerned about maximum demand.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3234289 24-May-2024 13:51

My understanding is that the ripple control is not guaranteed; it as at best a best-effort service with limited redundancy that is expected to be taken offline occasionally for maintenance. Historically it was significantly more important because it actually activated the different meter rates; as the meters now have an adequate internal clock, this is not necessary.

michaelmurfy

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#3234292 24-May-2024 13:53

nickb800: In the case of Kapiti, the 'Controlled 20' ripple receivers are only turned off for a few hours per year - they are basically not needed except for national grid emergencies, but the lines company keeps offering discounted pricing - my guess is that they want to hold onto the system and its adoption in case they need it in future (if they hit constraints, or Transpower changes charging scheme).

Interestingly, I'm positive this is how Octopus drive their hot water control: https://octopusenergy.nz/blog/hacking-hot-water-to-save-money

I'm on their hot water control where they turn off my hot water during peak times (mine is Level 3):

Level 1 - Off daily between 9am-11am and 7pm-9pm
Level 2 - Off daily between 8am-11am and 6pm-9pm
Level 3 - Off daily between 7am-11am and 5pm-9pm
Level 4 - Off daily between 7am-11am and 5pm-4am
Level 5 - Off daily between 7am-2pm and 5pm-4am

Also in Kapiti. However this is not delivered by Ripple but a "fatter" Smart Meter. Comparing providers now I am given controlled pricing too so I guess they're using this. Originally they took out my ripple control but now I've got both Ripple Control and Smart Control working together.

I'm interested to know that even if ripple control signals are not making it through due to filtering or any other reason if this will actually affect an end users pricing otherwise (outside of the trial I am on). AFAIK there are no on-peak and off-peak pricing done via Ripple these days as they're just done via smart meters and having hot water won't cost you any more on a regular plan when it is supposed to be off.

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SomeoneSomewhere

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#3234299 24-May-2024 14:09

michaelmurfy:

nickb800: In the case of Kapiti, the 'Controlled 20' ripple receivers are only turned off for a few hours per year - they are basically not needed except for national grid emergencies, but the lines company keeps offering discounted pricing - my guess is that they want to hold onto the system and its adoption in case they need it in future (if they hit constraints, or Transpower changes charging scheme).

Interestingly, I'm positive this is how Octopus drive their hot water control: https://octopusenergy.nz/blog/hacking-hot-water-to-save-money

I'm on their hot water control where they turn off my hot water during peak times (mine is Level 3):

Level 1 - Off daily between 9am-11am and 7pm-9pm
Level 2 - Off daily between 8am-11am and 6pm-9pm
Level 3 - Off daily between 7am-11am and 5pm-9pm
Level 4 - Off daily between 7am-11am and 5pm-4am
Level 5 - Off daily between 7am-2pm and 5pm-4am

Also in Kapiti. However this is not delivered by Ripple but a "fatter" Smart Meter. Comparing providers now I am given controlled pricing too so I guess they're using this. Originally they took out my ripple control but now I've got both Ripple Control and Smart Control working together.

I'm interested to know that even if ripple control signals are not making it through due to filtering or any other reason if this will actually affect an end users pricing otherwise (outside of the trial I am on). AFAIK there are no on-peak and off-peak pricing done via Ripple these days as they're just done via smart meters and having hot water won't cost you any more on a regular plan when it is supposed to be off.

Not quite; the relays in the smart meter can be directly controlled on and off on an individual or group basis, via the same radio networks that they report consumption over. Reprogramming a ripple relay on the other hand requires a physical site visit.

It could be equipment failure causing this current outage; the northern area equipment is apparently 50s-70s motor-generator sets (Tawa failed last year and was replaced with a static system, and the 475Hz gear is all static but of rather varying age including potentially still 70s...

Their asset management plan does say they intend to continue using the system for the foreseeable future due to concerns over cellphone network reliability.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234350 24-May-2024 16:58

SomeoneSomewhere:

Lines company pricing is fairly heavily regulated. If you read the several hundred pages in the pricing section of their website, particularly the pricing methodology, you'll probably find answers. I believe they have statutory requirements to avoid cross-subsidisation, which is probably the 'cash cow' you're talking about.

From your reference URL a couple of examples.

A low user with a controlled night meter I understand WE is charging the retailer on behalf of a low user the uncontrolled rate of 6.73 cents for metered power used at a very controlled over 8 night hours, yet the longer 10 hour "night boost" rate is .... really, yes its 1.90 cents.

To my nose that's the 354% odour of a cash cow. Quite a stink that somehow slipped under the Commerce Commissions nose.

And a standard user with a controlled night meter I understand WE is charging the retailer on behalf of the user the uncontrolled rate of 3.76 cents when the power used is very controlled over 8 night hours, yet the 10 hour night boost rate is .... really, yes its 0.90 cents.

At 411% premium the cost is a real pong that comcom staff must have been hospitalised with covid to have missed that!

Other lines companies are not doing this, they are charging a lower rate for N8 that is LESS than CN10.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234357 24-May-2024 17:07

SomeoneSomewhere:

Historically it was significantly more important because it actually activated the different meter rates; as the meters now have an adequate internal clock, this is not necessary.

There are many ways to skin the cat here, not just one way. EDMI meters can load switch but in my experience they are not yet doing so, rather the traditional ripple load control devices remain relatively reliable and are used in the Wellington region. Different regions may be functioning differently. Further complicating the topic is the third way this might happen somewhat like smart car charger load switching, with an internet connection controlling the "smart" switching time. Octopus may be doing this on a trial basis, I am not sure. Meter rates can vary by register and by time.

For now ripple load control remains and is relevant as the predominant automated load control system in use. Pricing and quality control should be in accord.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3234365 24-May-2024 17:49

michaelmurfy:

... and having hot water won't cost you any more on a regular plan when it is supposed to be off.

That's the thing here, when the hot water load control fails to turn off, the meter keeps clicking over and the consumer IS charged for the unintended extra power consumed.

Flick charged me for the unauthorized power consumption. A refund is being discussed.

While Flick might deserve some adverse publicity in relation to this matter I'll keep it balanced and on point.

Did any power retailer advise any Wellington N8 or CN10 power consumer they'd been overcharged and were getting a refund? Not that I am aware of.

For that to happen the retailer would need to become aware of the issue. Complaints is one avenue, but I don't plan to discuss that here beyond observing staff would need adequate training to competently handle this issue.

The preferable route would be for Wellington Electricity to advise the retailers of the details of the issue, so that the retailer could then analyse their data and provide appropriate advice and refunds to their consumers. "Smart" meters do measure the power used on a half hourly basis so unintended use can be calculated.

But Wellington Electricity would need to have systems that alert them to the issue, and act on them. I am not aware Wellington Electricity have alerted any retailer of Ripple Off Failures on their network in the last year.

It seems likely some people have paid extra and don't know otherwise - and like michaelmurfy do not have the possibility of being overcharged on their radars. (No disrespect implied or intended, its very understandable)

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3234367 24-May-2024 18:05

It would help if you used the specific rate codes in the document. I think you are misreading the rate codes and I'm really not understanding what you're trying to argue. I'm going to restrict myself to the RSUTOU codes so we don't talk about everything twice. That's Residential Standard User (not low user) with Time of Use metering (half-hourly smart meter fitted).

the uncontrolled rate of 3.76 cents when the power used is very controlled over 8 night hours

I believe you're looking at the RSUTOU-UC (Uncontrolled) code. It's not for ripple controlled loads. That's charged under two circumstances:

when you have no ripple relay and you pay the same rate for power 24/7, regardless of what uses it or when.
you have a working ripple relay, with the load separately metered, and they know that, so only your non-controlled loads are charged at this rate. You still pay the same rates 24/7.

If you have controlled loads on RSUTOU-UC, you are on the wrong plan.

"Day/Night" is somewhat ambiguous (source of confusion) as it is a relatively new term that has been derived from the older N8 (=CN8) night separately metered ripple LCD (load controlled device) connections - but in some cases using a single meter to feed the same functioning 8 hour ripple controller

The table references "day-night rate metering" and says switching is provided on channels 50-53 and 55-58.

"Day/Night" metering is where you had two meter registers, Day, and Night. Note that it is listed in the decabit tables as 'two-rate metering', not as load control. It is essentially providing a time-switch service to allow the meters to switch which was recording usage.

I'm not sure that connecting loads to the 'D16/N8' channels was ever authorised or anticipated; they are not labelled as 'CN8'. By putting them on those channels, they can't be shed for emergencies or maintenance work even if that work is going on overnight. OTOH, load connected to 'NB10' and the various hot water heating channels can be shed at will. Other lines companies may well have different arrangements of metering and load control.

Connecting loads to an N8 channel would be charged as if you had set a time switch for those hours, because as far as they're concerned, that's what you've done. You don't get special treatment for it.

Day-night pricing has been replaced with peak/off-peak pricing. RSUTOU-OP-UC would charge you 1.08c for off-peak usage (including the 8 night hours, plus many more), but you would have to pay RSUTOU-P-UC 9.08c for peak usage.

If you want to be charged controlled use rates for the appliance, then it needs to be approved and controlled by the right register - which for WE, N8 isn't the right register. You then get to either:

Meter it separately, as RSUTOU-CTRL at 1.61c and 19+ hours per day of operation, or
Meter it separately, as RSUTOU-NITE at 0.90c and 10 hours per day of operation, or
Connect it to the rest of your house without separate metering, and charge the whole house's loads at the 'all inclusive' rates:
- RSUTOU-AICO 2.82c: same rate 24/7
- RSUTOU-OP-AI 0.69c off peak, RSUTOU-P-AI 7.49c peak.

It sounds like you were previously on a day-night plan and were being charged the night rates for all night usage, including this 'controlled' load. You are now on what used to be called a '24UC' plan which doesn't have a night rate. This isn't a ripple problem; it's that you're not on a plan with a night or off-peak rate.

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