Wellington Electricity Network - Ripple Load Control Failing to Turn Off

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Wellington Electricity Network - Ripple Load Control Failing to Turn Off - Request for Half Hour Meter Data

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273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235071 26-May-2024 21:14

SomeoneSomewhere:

N8 is very, very different to CN8

You are welcome to make any distinction you see. It creates issues when they keep changing reference names(!)

LOL I see you've put up an image from page 435 - but you've cut off the comments and status fields (!)

I refer you to page 437 showing NB and NO both unambiguously approved for use.

Call em what you like, with whatever characteristics they may have, it does not change that I know and have seen 3 people / ICP's have contemporaneously independently experienced ripple OFF failures raising the question how far the network OFF failures went. How does any difference between N8 and CN8 affect that?

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235077 26-May-2024 21:24

SomeoneSomewhere:

I'm not sure that connecting loads to the 'D16/N8' channels was ever authorised or anticipated; they are not labelled as 'CN8'. By putting them on those channels, they can't be shed for emergencies or maintenance work even if that work is going on overnight. OTOH, load connected to 'NB10' and the various hot water heating channels can be shed at will. Other lines companies may well have different arrangements of metering and load control.

Ummm what do you think happens when an off ripple signal is sent out on master channel 110? As I read the chart that applies to the 8 hour channels 50, 51 and 52.

For other readers NB10 is on channel 20 and 29, and has master channel 103.

Where do you get your information from and does it trump the Wellington Electricity chart?

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235080 26-May-2024 21:28

They change because because there's three (or more) different naming schemes that matter here.

-CTRL, -NITE, -UC -AICO etc are the WE revenue rates; what they charge lines companies.
-N-8, -UN-24, 7304 - these are registry codes for meter registers, and standardised nationwide.
NB10, CN19, D16/N8 (note not ever discussed separately) - these are the WE internal ripple signal codes, and even the retailers don't care.
Other lines companies have their own codes too.

LOL I see you've put up an image from page 435 - but you've cut off the comments and status fields (!)

I refer you to page 437 showing NB and NO both unambiguously approved for use.

I never said they weren't. But WE doesn't offer a CN-8.

Aany load recorded against a CN-*, NB-*, or NO-* code will be billed at a flat rate, regardless of what time of day it occurs at. And as noted, HWCs don't significantly change energy consumption regardless of how long they're energised for; that's the beauty of the thermostat. Otherwise it would likely be illegal to install an HWC without a time switch.

Did you know that the earliest HWCs and electrical installations in NZ had no thermostat and no energy metering? You put in say a 0.5-1kW element and let it boil. Your energy bill was based on the size of the element installed.

Call em what you like, with whatever characteristics they may have, it does not change that I know and have seen 3 people / ICP's have contemporaneously independently experienced ripple OFF failures raising the question how far the network OFF failures went. How does any difference between N8 and CN8 affect that?

It has a difference on the impact of those failures. If you stop sending D16/N8 signals, then the only impact should be that day/night meters get stuck on 'night' and give people cheap power. If you think everyone has replaced those day/night meters with smart meters (that may be pretending to be day/night), there should be no impact. You'll probably find out any mislabelled/misrecorded meters because the next month will come around with zero usage on the day channel.

If you stop sending CN8 signals (which, per the ripple charts, don't exist), then there could be a problem.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235081 26-May-2024 21:33

Hinko:

SomeoneSomewhere:

I'm not sure that connecting loads to the 'D16/N8' channels was ever authorised or anticipated; they are not labelled as 'CN8'. By putting them on those channels, they can't be shed for emergencies or maintenance work even if that work is going on overnight. OTOH, load connected to 'NB10' and the various hot water heating channels can be shed at will. Other lines companies may well have different arrangements of metering and load control.

Ummm what do you think happens when an off ripple signal is sent out on master channel 110? As I read the chart that applies to the 8 hour channels 50, 51 and 52.

In that case? All the day/night meters get stuck on day. So they don't do that because that would cause an overcharge.

For other readers NB10 is on channel 20 and 29, and has master channel 103.

Where do you get your information from and does it trump the Wellington Electricity chart?

I have no idea of the relevance of NB10, other than it seems to be closer to what you want your ripple relay to do.

I'm reading the WE chart. It doesn't mention CN8. All the channels on command 110 are listed as D16/N8 for day/night metering, plus some obsolete channels for other metering. No load control.

RunningMan

8953 posts

Uber Geek

#3235088 26-May-2024 21:59

I may have missed it (hence this post), however is there any evidence that more than one customer has actually been affected by this fault? I'm aware of each geographical area, but has there been any report from another user of the same issue in the same area?

If not, then this speculation of how many affected users there are is pointless. In the abscence of any other reports, then the obvious place to check first is the OP's ripple receiver relay. Has a fault actually been raised with the retailer to get this checked?

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235089 26-May-2024 22:01

SomeoneSomewhere:

But WE doesn't offer a CN-8.

WE doesn't list a price for NO which is a matter between WE and the retailers. However WE do generally provide the switching signals and they can negotiate custom contracts. Consumers buy power from Retailers, not WE. I am informed most retailers in the WE region still have NITE ONLY customers (probably the current version of an evolving name).

The WE chart has evolved over time. In 2002 version of the chart did not have a column "Register Content Codes" yet the ripple injectors have mostly been around much longer and the ripple signals still function much the same.

The ripple relay labelled Day/Night is rated at 40 amps. You're saying its not intended to switch load?

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235091 26-May-2024 22:12

RunningMan:

I may have missed it (hence this post), however is there any evidence that more than one customer has actually been affected by this fault? I'm aware of each geographical area, but has there been any report from another user of the same issue in the same area?

If not, then this speculation of how many affected users there are is pointless. In the abscence of any other reports, then the obvious place to check first is the OP's ripple receiver relay. Has a fault actually been raised with the retailer to get this checked?

Yep you missed it.

Answering your questions: to say the least, yes, yes, yes and yes (plural), and the matter has also been raised with Wellington Electricity as well. If I did not know of others with the same fault at the same time I would not waste my or your time on this. Another complainant has beat his head with the same issue, and had his LCD replaced under the banner his LCD was faulty..... when the network is not monitored and more likely to have been the issue. Staff training on this issue is disappointing.

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SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235092 26-May-2024 22:16

One of the hallmarks of ripple control is that it's transmit-only and therefore very hard to monitor beyond the basics of putting receivers in known locations and checking they receive signals. Changes in loading in individual installations (particularly loads with a very capacitive profile) can soak up the ripple signal and reduce reception around them.

Not sure where you've dug up a 2002 chart from; you may as well link it if you want us to refer to it.

The ripple relay hardware is intended to be able to switch loads. That does not mean that WE want you to connect loads to a two-rate metering channel or will give you discounts for doing so, any more than you can ask for a discount because you put your outdoor lighting on the street-light channel.

The [url=https://www.welectricity.co.nz/assets/DMSDocuments/922016-17-Network-Pricing-Schedule-v2.pdf]2016-17 pricing schedule[/] lists a '-NITE' rate that is "Controlled option with power between the hours 11pm - 7am", and no 'night boost' option. The same '-NITE' rate is now listed as being night boost with the 2-hour afternoon extra.

I suspect that what has happened is the timing in the ripple controllers has been changed so that channels 20 & 29 go from being straight CN-8 night to an NB-8 boost, and customers have been migrated to this plan without needing to be informed, or with minimal notice needed.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235093 26-May-2024 22:25

SomeoneSomewhere:

Hinko:

Ummm what do you think happens when an off ripple signal is sent out on master channel 110? As I read the chart that applies to the 8 hour channels 50, 51 and 52.

In that case? All the day/night meters get stuck on day. So they don't do that because that would cause an overcharge.

A grid emergency transcending nights with "ON" signals failing to be sent would most likely be caused by multiple generator failures and/or the start of a "dry year".

A bit of overcharge for a few customers is going to be an issue that disappears behind the bigger issues occurring at such a time!

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235094 26-May-2024 22:32

Not necessarily a grid emergency, and doesn't mean they can knowingly overcharge customers. Occasionally you see things like individual towns/suburbs being put onto diesel generators so that they can do work on the non-redundant line supplying them. Example up in Piha, I wouldn't be surprised if Eastbourne has had a similar thing happen a few times.

As for day/night meters being a new thing, here's one that's purportedly from the 70s, from the same NZ liney. Nothing new has 'English Electric' written on it.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235097 26-May-2024 23:11

SomeoneSomewhere:

One of the hallmarks of ripple control is that it's transmit-only and therefore very hard to monitor beyond the basics of putting receivers in known locations and checking they receive signals.

Are the "basics" done by Wellington Electricity?

Its a shame the smart meter readings database is not mined for evidence of ripple failures.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235099 26-May-2024 23:14

Smart meter are extremely underused because of the huge hodge-podge of vendors and metering providers. Checking ripple functionality is way, way, way down the list of things that should be done when they figure out smart meters.

The basics is having ripple receivers on the site supplies of substations hooked into SCADA, and yes, I believe they do that.

Gwilson

136 posts

Master Geek

#3235103 27-May-2024 06:43

A little off-topic but we have averaged > 1 outage per month in electricity service over the last 12 months. I have been dealing with Wellington Electricity and Utilities Disputes for months with no real outcome.

It's either a management and/or underinvestment in their network issue I believe. Trees contacting wires are most often quoted as a cause but I don't think that's the whole story by any stretch. Whatever the reason it's a very poor standard of service that doesn't seem to matter to the provider. Each time all household devices are brutally cut off with no shutdown process.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3235105 27-May-2024 07:21

That's rather unusual; WE's outage statistics were fairly reasonable last I looked. You should probably make your own thread but roughly where are you and is there any common cause? Is this a new thing?

IIRC outages under a minute don't count for statistical purposes per the Code. That only removes the very first one though.

Hinko

273 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3235126 27-May-2024 08:59

Gwilson:

A little off-topic but we have averaged > 1 outage per month in electricity service over the last 12 months.

Wow, interesting, please start your own thread and post the new URL in this thread.

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