Kids Room, heating, heat pump discussion etc

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networkn

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Topic # 123488 9-Jul-2013 17:02

Hi.

I have an issue where our kids bedroom is over our double garage. Our house is 6 years old and the garage door is a metal segmented roller style. In Winter it's freezing in the garage and therefore so is the kids room, and in summer, it's unbearably hot in garage and also in the kids room.

We are toying with the idea of putting in a heat pump and have a quote for a Teco and Daikin at $2100-2400 installed including a bracket for mounting it on our roof (Apparently $180 extra). We have a Fujitsu in our master bedroom, and a Panasonic in my office downstairs.

Heating in winter we could fix by installing a $300 Delonghi Oil Heater like this one.

http://www.briscoes.co.nz/electrical/heating/oil-heaters/delonghi-oil-column-heater-rapido-series--1500w-1018419

but in summer it's just unbearable in his room. I did consider insulating the garage door downstairs, but costs seem quite high for that.

I would be keen on opinions on recent experiences with various brands of heat pumps? Our last installer said Daikin is the best, the Panasonic according to him is quite unreliable, he won't touch Fujitsu and did offer me a Mitsubishi as well somewhere in the middle of those two price ranges. We would like a quiet solution and something quite energy efficient (The Daikin has a sensor that switches it to low mode when no-one is in the room etc).

Also apparently the Daiken Dehumidifying function is second to none, it exists on our Fujiitsu but relies on a 15c difference between in and outdoors to function properly, not sure about that!

Any constructive comments/observations welcomed.

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Reply # 851752 9-Jul-2013 17:20

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Your first priority in this case should be insulation.

I would probably insulate the garage ceiling, i.e. the floor of your kid's bedroom.

Lazarui

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Reply # 851755 9-Jul-2013 17:25

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Same I would recommend first fixing up your insulation, then look at your heating options afterwards, this will also bring down your heating bills in winter, and make your house drier.

networkn

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Reply # 851760 9-Jul-2013 17:28

Lazarui: Same I would recommend first fixing up your insulation, then look at your heating options afterwards, this will also bring down your heating bills in winter, and make your house drier.

The house on the whole (being 6 years old) is well insulated, but perhaps not enough in this part of the house given the extremes of the temperatures in the space below.

Is it a case of putting another layer of underlay under the carpet?

Lazarui

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Reply # 851761 9-Jul-2013 17:31

networkn:
Lazarui: Same I would recommend first fixing up your insulation, then look at your heating options afterwards, this will also bring down your heating bills in winter, and make your house drier.

The house on the whole (being 6 years old) is well insulated, but perhaps not enough in this part of the house given the extremes of the temperatures in the space below.

Is it a case of putting another layer of underlay under the carpet?

hmm more something like expol whats the roof like in the garage that the room sits on is there space to put in insulation? Beams etc?

graemeh

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Reply # 851774 9-Jul-2013 17:46

networkn: The house on the whole (being 6 years old) is well insulated, but perhaps not enough in this part of the house given the extremes of the temperatures in the space below.

Is it a case of putting another layer of underlay under the carpet?

I think your problem needs further investigation. This shouldn't be happening in a 6 year old house.

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Reply # 851800 9-Jul-2013 18:13

Moved to correct forum. Please use correct forum.

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Reply # 851814 9-Jul-2013 18:30

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Like others I would be seriously investigating option for insulating the floor better. I fear something more than just an extra carpet layer. Get a builder in for some advice and a quote for options.

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Niel

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Reply # 851899 9-Jul-2013 19:52

Call up the Expol factory and get a quote for polystyrene cut to the exact dimensions you need to fit into your garage door sections. Glue it in place (with polystyrene-compatible glue). They will sell direct to the public and in exactly the size you want, don't bother trying to cut it yourself. Insulating the floor will still have heat/cold trapped in the garage, halving the effectiveness. Then you may find nothing further needed.

Mitsubishi was recommended to us by an independent installer, saying it has the longest warranty and the least issues. In December we paid about $3300 for a 6-7kW unit. The cost for a roof bracket is fair, for a normal install if you don't have a concrete pad in the right place then you pay about $70 for a "polypad" (plastic plate instead of pouring concrete).

That is an expensive oil fin heater, rather get the cheapest one from The Warehouse and a plug-in timer. There is very little difference other than maybe longevity and looks.

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Reply # 853268 10-Jul-2013 12:42

Just so we can reference "freezing" I'm in Christchurch. I have a double garage, steel door with kids room above. Renovations finished not long before E1.

Firstly our kids don't feel the cold as much as we do so "freezing" to them may have a different meaning to you.

Next when I did the reno I lined the garage roof - but only after putting in extra thick batts. The window is also double glazed so whatever sun hits the door heats the garage and with a concrete floor it retains heat pretty well – well enough that I have a clothesline in the garage and it does the clothes all winter.

As for the kids room that is also extra insulated in the walls and ceiling (as well as the floor below), with double glazing and curtains. Curtains get closed around 4.30 to retain whatever heat is inside the house. There is a heat pump some way down the hall and the room will get to 16 degrees by bedtime and maintained that heat over night.

Windows are opened during the day to air and ventilate. So I try to remove moisture.

A duvet, flannelette sheets and an occasional hot water bottle pretty much does it.

As for summer windows are opened to keep air flowing and remove heat. Curtains are closed if it is likely to get too hot to keep the sun out.

If its really hot heat pump turns into an air-conditioner to drop temperature.

If I was to do it again the first step I would take is insulation.

wasabi2k

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Reply # 853276 10-Jul-2013 12:48

Whatever you save when buying an oil heater you will end up paying in electricity. Those things are AWFUL.

As has been said, look at insulation, get an expert in, then windows, then cooling/heating.

B1GGLZ

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Reply # 853278 10-Jul-2013 12:52

networkn:

Is it a case of putting another layer of underlay under the carpet?

No.
You need much more than that.
If the garage ceiling space is open then install foam insulation between the joists. If the ceiling is lined you will need to strip the lining and replace afterwards. Also check the garage walls. Some builders cut corners. Specs for our house (built 1987) show pink batts in all walls. When we checked prior to installing Airfoam we found pink batts only in areas where a building inspector could see whats there. Installing Insulation made an amazing difference.
Best insulation would be sprayfoam (for complete thermal break) but hard to find anyone in NZ that does it and most likely very expensive.

raytaylor

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Reply # 853650 11-Jul-2013 00:24

+1 for the expol insulation. Just insert it into the joists in the garage ceiling and then cover it up again.

Another option you might want to look into is an HRV system. We have one in our house as well as the heat pump and it does pretty well in the summer.

The HRV is pretty good. You set the temperature you want - eg. 20 degrees. If the attic is warmer than 20 degrees and the living space is 17 degrees, it will pull the hot air down to warm up the difference. If the living space is over 20 degrees, it sucks out the hot air and blows it outside.
You may want something similar, or perhaps to install an extraction fan (that isnt too loud) to work on hot days.
If the attic floor is at the same level as the floor of the kids bedroom (in houses where the second floor doesnt completley cover the ground floor) then you can use a proper HRV to bring warm air in from the nearby attic, and automatically blow hot air out of the kids room on a hot day.

If you think alot of heat is coming through the garage door, then perhaps a new colour scheme could help. There is a movement to lower global warming by painting roofs of houses white or cream colour.

I used to sell Mitsubishi heat pumps at the appliance store i used to work at. They are indeed good and the 5 year warranty was also pretty good. Though we had never had one fail. I really liked their quiet floor level units.
You may be interested to know
Delonghi make a "portable" split model. Its not actually portable but you can install it yourself. My parents have one in the kids end of their house for my younger brother and sister. The pipework comes pre-gassed and you simply install the indoor unit on the wall, and the outdoor unit at a suitable location. They call it portable because there is a valve on the ends of the pipework so when you unplug them, the valve closes and the gas stays inside the pipe. Like a garden hose connector that stops the water flow if a nozzle or spray head isnt plugged into the end of the hose.
I prefered to refer to them as a 'self install' model that most handymen could install.

You can get an engineer to make up a bracket to hold the outdoor unit for probably closer to $100 if your roof isnt flat.

Oil heaters.
Despite what some may say, if you are only heating a small room, an oil heater or fan/space heater can sometimes be cheaper to run than a heat pump. Only in small rooms though

British persons
They seem to have an obsession with heat pumps. In most cases, there is no convincing otherwise

Heat pumps must be cleaned
To keep them efficient, you do need to clean the filters on the indoor unit regularly and ensure leaves or other debris dont get into the outdoor unit.

I am a big fan of doing things efficiently. Insulation is probably your best bet. Even putting the expol stuff on the back of the garage door (if not a roller) can be helpful. And a small fan to extract heat at both the ceiling level of the garage and the celing level of the kids room can be quite effective.

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wellygary

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Reply # 853689 11-Jul-2013 09:02

raytaylor: +1 for the expol insulation. Just insert it into the joists in the garage ceiling and then cover it up again.

Expol is great for underfloor where it is difficult to line, but this is garage ceiling, so is able to be lined

Batts give a much higher R rating for this application, either glass wool, or any other type,

But this interface *should* already be insulated, check what you have in the roof or the garage...

For Summer, you might want to look at getting some form of extractor fan you can run to vent the heat, ( or just open the garage door a bit , ( I am guessing it is a dark colour)

Goosey

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Reply # 853711 11-Jul-2013 09:35

We have the same issue. I suspect the OP's garage celing is gib lined, so expol wouldnt look that great hanging off the celing.

Our home is 22 years old, a big room over the 3 car garage. I've been pondering replacing the tilt steel garage doors with thr sectional type to help with a better "fit".

Injecting insulation into the celing cavity might be one of potential solutions.
I do know in our situation there is some batts missing due to the design.

What about retrofit underfloor heating? (complemented by retrofitted floor insulation).
for the heat in the summer.... Just open the windows ! Heat rises... create your own back draft from downstairs thru to the upstairs. Maybey fit those flyscreens to allow windows to be opened at night?

Edit: we have white colour steel roof and garage doors !
Still bloody hot in the summer and cold in the winter!

Niel

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Reply # 854565 12-Jul-2013 19:43

Note I was suggesting polystyrene sheeting cut to size by Expol to fit into the sections of garage door, not Expol polystyrene insulation purchased from a retailer and installed in the ceiling.

Polystyrene on the garage door will add thermal lag (despite not being able to cover the joints) so that the heat will radiate on the outside faster than the inside (and cold be sucked out slower). Our garage stays cool all day in summer until the sun gets low enough to hit the door, then temperature shoots through the room (no pun intended). There is no ceiling insulation other than Gib, but it stays cool during the day. It is on my list to insulate the door (but the list is long...).

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