Options for LPG cylinder install

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allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#196206 23-May-2016 10:51

I've just bought a house which currently has a gas hob and no other gas appliances. The hob is currently connected to a 9kg bottle stored under the kitchen bench. I've been assured this is legal but I think I'd sleep a lot better at night with the gas supply moved outside as soon as possible, so I'm looking at the different options for external install.

I understand that a 9kg bottle will last for 3-6 months of hob-only use. We cook a lot, so I'm assuming the lower end of that range. At $39 a swap, that's about $160 a year. However, there's the hassle of having to swap the things over (Murphy's law, probably halfway through a stir fry on a wet winter's night).

A 45kg bottle will last a year, so much less chance of needing to change it in the middle of dinner, and at $110/refill the gas itself is about half the price of a 9kg bottle swap. However there's a yearly rental fee of about $64/bottle. I gather the standard install is 2x45kg bottles, so the fixed charges take the total price of this option up to about $240 a year for the same gas usage.

It seems to me the ideal setup would be a single 45kg rented bottle with a 9kg bottle on an automatic changeover. That'd give plenty of time to order a new 45kg cylinder when it ran out without the need to pay for rental of a second large cylinder sitting there doing nothing for a year. I think the total cost of this option would be about $195 a year, factoring in a new 9kg bottle about every two years.

It seems like this is a very common setup in Australia but I haven't heard of anyone doing it here. The gas companies all seem to favour the 2x45kg option. Additionally if I went for 45kg+9kg, I'd like for it to be easily convertible to 45+45kg if I decided to go for gas hot water in the future. Seems to me I want a couple of these, or something like them - but again, I can't turn up anything in NZ.

Anyone got any thoughts? If 45kg+9kg isn't practical I'm thinking I'll just go for 2x45kg, as not having to change bottles is probably worth $80/year to me.

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7785 posts

Uber Geek

#1557808 23-May-2016 10:56

We just bought an extra 9kg bottle. When one ran out we replaced it and had the empty filled in the next day or so. Between the hob the BBQ and the spare we always had one full and two partial bottles of LPG.

Mike

trig42

5814 posts

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#1557819 23-May-2016 11:06

We have three 9kg bottles. One is on the BBQ, one is on the Hobs (outside bottle though) and one is spare.

The hobs last about 3 months (we do a lot of cooking too). When that runs out (you can tell when it is getting low as well), we swap it for the spare and next time we go and get petrol, fill or swappa the empty. Same goes for the BBQ - when that runs out, we swap for the spare and then get the BBQ bottle filled/swapped so we always have a full spare (there may be a period of up to a week before we bother going to fill the spare, and we always know approximately how much gas we have remaining so no danger of being caught short.

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1557829 23-May-2016 11:12

MikeAqua:

We just bought an extra 9kg bottle. When one ran out we replaced it and had the empty filled in the next day or so. Between the hob the BBQ and the spare we always had one full and two partial bottles of LPG.

We'd definitely do this if going for the 9kg option - so the "swap" itself would involve grabbing the bottle from the shed rather than making a trip to the petrol station. Not the end of the world and perhaps I'm making too big a deal of it. I guess I just feel like if I'm paying for a new external install, it'd be better to get one that gives me the option of expanding my gas usage in the future. I would love a convertible bracket that allows me to swap 9kg bottles for 45kgs in the future as this would be the best of both worlds.

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1557838 23-May-2016 11:21

trig42:

We have three 9kg bottles. One is on the BBQ, one is on the Hobs (outside bottle though) and one is spare.

The hobs last about 3 months (we do a lot of cooking too). When that runs out (you can tell when it is getting low as well), we swap it for the spare and next time we go and get petrol, fill or swappa the empty. Same goes for the BBQ - when that runs out, we swap for the spare and then get the BBQ bottle filled/swapped so we always have a full spare (there may be a period of up to a week before we bother going to fill the spare, and we always know approximately how much gas we have remaining so no danger of being caught short.

How much warning do you get when the bottle's running low? Presumably there's less pressure than normal - how long after the pressure drops before it runs out entirely?

trig42

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#1557840 23-May-2016 11:22

Lower pressure, flames a bit yellower (also, we are normally expecting it, as it generally lasts bang on 3 months). Not much time between lower pressure and flame out (maybe 15 minutes of cooking?)

MikeAqua

7785 posts

Uber Geek

#1557841 23-May-2016 11:23

We are the same ... except the new house has an induction hob, so we ended up with the BBQ and two spares.

Then we sold the caravan ... so now we have the bottle for that too.

So now we have ... three spare bottles for the BBQ

trig42:

We have three 9kg bottles. One is on the BBQ, one is on the Hobs (outside bottle though) and one is spare.

Mike

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1557842 23-May-2016 11:23

A 9kg under-bench cylinder may be legal, but only if the cupboard is vented properly as required (and it's connected to the hob appropriately and meeting standards - such as using copper pipe not flexible hose through any penetrations, walls etc, including the wall of the cupboard). 90% chance that if it was a DIY install done by a previous owner, it will be illegal. I agree with you that even if well vented, then I'd want it moved outside anyway. Fires which may or may not be related to the gas installation itself commonly start in kitchens, and a 9kg bottle is quite a large potential bomb sitting in close proximity to where a fire may start.

I believe that there's a cut-off point of 15kg connected capacity per bottle for fixed installations, above which the regulations for placement of the bottle becomes more stringent, proximity to windows, doors, sub-floor vents, and plumbing gulley traps etc, as well as how the bottles are secured (ie for EQ).

As you're making a change, you're going to need a regd. gasfitter, first step may be to get one in to look at options and advise.

The installation I've got, I wouldn't have been able to put large bottles in a position that wasn't an eyesore, but 9kg bottles are fine, and that's what we use. Same size and fittings as our BBQ, there's always one or two spares available.

Cost to refill at my local gas station, or swap a bottle is $25 -if you're being charged $39, then you're being absolutely fleeced. We use the gas hob a lot for cooking, don't even own an electric kettle, so it's also used for boiling water for tea etc. 3 months per 9kg is conservative - we probably get 4-6 months. I keep a full spare next to the one in use, swapping the connection over takes a minute.

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Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

mdf

3516 posts

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#1557871 23-May-2016 11:34

In terms of the 45kg with 9kg backup query, where are you located? We're in Wellington and Rockgas (part of Contact) deal with the 45kg side of things. They'd probably be able to answer your query about a 9kg backup.

I take it you're not on reticulated natural gas? We're just converting and it's worked out much cheaper than I expected particularly if continuous hot water might be on the horizon.

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1557874 23-May-2016 11:38

Fred99:

A 9kg under-bench cylinder may be legal, but only if the cupboard is vented properly as required (and it's connected to the hob appropriately and meeting standards - such as using copper pipe not flexible hose through any penetrations, walls etc, including the wall of the cupboard). 90% chance that if it was a DIY install done by a previous owner, it will be illegal. I agree with you that even if well vented, then I'd want it moved outside anyway. Fires which may or may not be related to the gas installation itself commonly start in kitchens, and a 9kg bottle is quite a large potential bomb sitting in close proximity to where a fire may start.

I believe that there's a cut-off point of 15kg connected capacity per bottle for fixed installations, above which the regulations for placement of the bottle becomes more stringent, proximity to windows, doors, sub-floor vents, and plumbing gulley traps etc, as well as how the bottles are secured (ie for EQ).

As you're making a change, you're going to need a regd. gasfitter, first step may be to get one in to look at options and advise.

The installation I've got, I wouldn't have been able to put large bottles in a position that wasn't an eyesore, but 9kg bottles are fine, and that's what we use. Same size and fittings as our BBQ, there's always one or two spares available.

Cost to refill at my local gas station, or swap a bottle is $25 -if you're being charged $39, then you're being absolutely fleeced. We use the gas hob a lot for cooking, don't even own an electric kettle, so it's also used for boiling water for tea etc. 3 months per 9kg is conservative - we probably get 4-6 months. I keep a full spare next to the one in use, swapping the connection over takes a minute.

Thanks. I'm pretty sure it was a DIY-quality install and isn't in a vented cupboard, so out it goes.

I had a look last time I filled up the car and could swear the swap price was $38 or $39. Seems like there's a lot of variation around the country. Point taken though, that is probably too high an estimate.

I'll definitely contact a gasfitter to ask about my options. Just wanted to see if I was talking nonsense first! It certainly looks like very few people are using 45kg cylinders for cooking only so I'll take that on board. I'm willing to pay for convenience, but I guess there is a point where it's not worth it.

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1557878 23-May-2016 11:41

mdf: In terms of the 45kg with 9kg backup query, where are you located? We're in Wellington and Rockgas (part of Contact) deal with the 45kg side of things. They'd probably be able to answer your query about a 9kg backup.

I take it you're not on reticulated natural gas? We're just converting and it's worked out much cheaper than I expected particularly if continuous hot water might be on the horizon.

Auckland. Seems like there are a few suppliers, but most of them make it virtually impossible to find out their prices from their websites. The only one who was upfront was Metrogas (that's where I took the prices in my post from). I might take your advice and send a few emails about the 45+9kg option.

There is actually reticulated gas in the street, but it's a crosslease property with a shared driveway - I'm imagining it would be a complete nightmare to have it installed. We'd also need to convert as much energy use as possible to gas to make it cost effective, which would be a lot of upfront cost right after moving in. Maybe an option for the future.

trig42

5814 posts

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#1557879 23-May-2016 11:41

Fred99:

A 9kg under-bench cylinder may be legal, but only if the cupboard is vented properly as required (and it's connected to the hob appropriately and meeting standards - such as using copper pipe not flexible hose through any penetrations, walls etc, including the wall of the cupboard). 90% chance that if it was a DIY install done by a previous owner, it will be illegal. I agree with you that even if well vented, then I'd want it moved outside anyway. Fires which may or may not be related to the gas installation itself commonly start in kitchens, and a 9kg bottle is quite a large potential bomb sitting in close proximity to where a fire may start.

I believe that there's a cut-off point of 15kg connected capacity per bottle for fixed installations, above which the regulations for placement of the bottle becomes more stringent, proximity to windows, doors, sub-floor vents, and plumbing gulley traps etc, as well as how the bottles are secured (ie for EQ).

As you're making a change, you're going to need a regd. gasfitter, first step may be to get one in to look at options and advise.

The installation I've got, I wouldn't have been able to put large bottles in a position that wasn't an eyesore, but 9kg bottles are fine, and that's what we use. Same size and fittings as our BBQ, there's always one or two spares available.

Cost to refill at my local gas station, or swap a bottle is $25 -if you're being charged $39, then you're being absolutely fleeced. We use the gas hob a lot for cooking, don't even own an electric kettle, so it's also used for boiling water for tea etc. 3 months per 9kg is conservative - we probably get 4-6 months. I keep a full spare next to the one in use, swapping the connection over takes a minute.

I live on Waiheke Island, and I am being fleeced. But apart from taking the Cylinder to Auckland (In a car, because I can't take a full one on the passenger ferry) I am stuck with it. Petrol is also at least 30c a litre more expensive :/

Oh for a $25 swap a bottle (I think my father gets his about that price in Thames, using his ~~Winnie~~ Gold Card

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1557880 23-May-2016 11:42

trig42:

Lower pressure, flames a bit yellower (also, we are normally expecting it, as it generally lasts bang on 3 months). Not much time between lower pressure and flame out (maybe 15 minutes of cooking?)

"Yellower" ?

Shouldn't really be yellow in operation at all, with exception that a little salt on the burner will make the flame yellow (high school science there).

Yellow in normal operation indicates incomplete combustion and production of carbon monoxide, which you don't want want for obvious reasons, the burner needs servicing (cleaning and/or correct jetting).

When ours runs out, the blue flame shrinks and dies - much the same as when you turn the gas level down.

Perthman

33 posts

Geek

#1558076 23-May-2016 17:06

A 9kg in an inside cupboard not sealed off will create all sorts of other hazards, inc insurance and non compliance issues. We have just moved home from an all gas to an all electric so the first move was the cooktop. You will need a gas fitter and it is not just a matter of putting a hole thru the wall and connecting a bottle. There are the correct connections inside, a cut off valve inside, a rrestraining strap, a connection point outside including a test valve, cover over the top of the bottle (we are using a 9kg with backup 4.5kg bottles from the motorhome), restraining strap -yep the whole 9yards. Havent had the bill yet :-)

Interesting to read the run times for a bottle tho - sounds good. And for those contemplating 45kg bottles, dont forget they also charge you what amounts to close to a bottle refill again as a rental charge. Our last bottles were costing around $112 each

1eStar

1604 posts

Uber Geek

#1558126 23-May-2016 17:58

If you move to an external gas bottle you will need to have the system recertified by a gas fitter.

If your current gas stove is not a certified burner, it may need to be replaced in it's entirety with a modern certified appliance.

If your residence is or has been unoccupied for a sufficiently long enough period (6months? 9months? Sorry can't recall), your system will need to be recertified.

If you do not have certification then the gas supply company will not deliver gas.

Edit: to say what I mean...

allio

885 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1558241 23-May-2016 21:22

Perthman:

A 9kg in an inside cupboard not sealed off will create all sorts of other hazards, inc insurance and non compliance issues. We have just moved home from an all gas to an all electric so the first move was the cooktop. You will need a gas fitter and it is not just a matter of putting a hole thru the wall and connecting a bottle. There are the correct connections inside, a cut off valve inside, a rrestraining strap, a connection point outside including a test valve, cover over the top of the bottle (we are using a 9kg with backup 4.5kg bottles from the motorhome), restraining strap -yep the whole 9yards. Havent had the bill yet :-)

Interesting to read the run times for a bottle tho - sounds good. And for those contemplating 45kg bottles, dont forget they also charge you what amounts to close to a bottle refill again as a rental charge. Our last bottles were costing around $112 each

I saw a quote somewhere of around $500 for the most basic internal 9kg -> external 9kg install, so I'm imagining it'll be anything upwards from there for a more complicated install. I figure it's worth doing properly the first time.

$112 per bottle seems like a huge rental charge, unless you were getting a significantly discounted refill cost as well? Genesis does 2x45kg bottles for $115 rental (and $97 refills - cheapest option I've found so far). Ongas and Metrogas charge $128 for 2x45kg rental.

1eStar:

If you move to an external gas bottle you will need to have the system recertified by a gas fitter.

If your current gas stove is not a certified burner, it may need to be replaced in it's entirety with a modern certified appliance.

If your residence is or has been unoccupied for a sufficiently long enough period (6months? 9months? Sorry can't recall), your system will need to be recertified.

If you do not have certification then the gas supply company will not deliver gas.

Edit: to say what I mean...

Thanks. Was aware that the external install will need certification, and that the gas company will need the certification before they agree to deliver. The house hasn't been unoccupied, and it looked like a standard gas range so I'd be disappointed if that had to come out. Will find out after I move in I guess.

I've decided to just ask the gasfitter to install a bracket/retainer compatible with both 45kg and 9kg bottles if possible, and if it's not I'm just going to go straight for 45kgs. Other half is keener to get continuous hot water than I'd thought so that might be in the medium term future rather than long term.

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