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10 posts

Wannabe Geek


Topic # 223022 8-Sep-2017 15:33
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The main problem with these systems is they use a tiny o-ring to seal on the outer surface of polybutylene pipe. But this pipe is soft and is easily scratched, and if there is a scratch where the o-ring is seated then you are going to get a leak. Other systems such as old-fashioned crimping, seal on the inside surface of the pipe, which obviously not likely to be scratched. The other problem is the quality of products. In many cases it is just not practically possible to push the pipe into the connector because the grab-ring teeth are too tight. Then you have to dismantle the join and pull out the grab-ring and either replace it, or use long-nose pliers to adjust each tooth so that you have a chance of pushing them over the pipe. Arghhh! What a waste of time on a system that is suppose to speed a job up.


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  Reply # 1861011 8-Sep-2017 15:46
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Take it all back. They only get away with it because kiwi's put up with junk. They'll either change product or go broke if everyone diligently returns substandard products.

 

Heaps of the plumbing and hardware stores also sell rubbish brass fittings - a taper thread fitting that bottoms out long before it binds up is plain wrong. Put it back on the shelf and walk out.


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  Reply # 1861017 8-Sep-2017 15:57
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I first came across these push-fit connections in the last couple of months when our old water cooler sprung a leak.  We needed to fit an isolating tap while a replacement was being sorted out.  I didn't quite believe the guy at the hardware shop when he said it just pushes on.  It certainly worked and would not budge when I gave it a reasonable pull.

 

I'm slightly more concerned about the plastic water pipes running in the walls of newer homes and their likelihood of splitting/bursting when they get to 30-50 years old.  I assume that good old soldered copper piping didn't do that.  Of course that was a lot more expensive and we were probably being slowly poisoned by the lead in the solder, but that's beside the point....!





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  Reply # 1861024 8-Sep-2017 16:09
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Dynamic:

 

I'm slightly more concerned about the plastic water pipes running in the walls of newer homes and their likelihood of splitting/bursting when they get to 30-50 years old.  I assume that good old soldered copper piping didn't do that.  

 

Wellington Hospital is less than 10 years old and has copper pipes that have pinhole leaks in them. Cue teams of lawyers arguing as to whether the cause is crappy tubing or something in the water.

 

I have used Hepworth or Acorn push fit connectors without problems replacing old Dux crimp connectors and black polybutylene pipe.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1861063 8-Sep-2017 18:34
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JessieB:

 

The main problem with these systems is they use a tiny o-ring to seal on the outer surface of polybutylene pipe. But this pipe is soft and is easily scratched, and if there is a scratch where the o-ring is seated then you are going to get a leak. Other systems such as old-fashioned crimping, seal on the inside surface of the pipe, which obviously not likely to be scratched. The other problem is the quality of products. In many cases it is just not practically possible to push the pipe into the connector because the grab-ring teeth are too tight. Then you have to dismantle the join and pull out the grab-ring and either replace it, or use long-nose pliers to adjust each tooth so that you have a chance of pushing them over the pipe. Arghhh! What a waste of time on a system that is suppose to speed a job up.

 

 

 

 

I have seen crimped connectors leak, say 10-20 years down the track,  with a fine spray leak. I would have thought with the push ones, if there is a scratch, that it would leak straight away. I have used them before on temporary fixes when the old black pipe failed. But have now totally replumbed the house.


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  Reply # 1861072 8-Sep-2017 18:54
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I've only has copper pipe fail at home. Pinhole leaks even along straight parts of it. Had buteline in to replace it and no leaks. Crimp tool costs a crapload tho.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 1861073 8-Sep-2017 18:58
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Dynamic:

 

I first came across these push-fit connections in the last couple of months when our old water cooler sprung a leak.  We needed to fit an isolating tap while a replacement was being sorted out.  I didn't quite believe the guy at the hardware shop when he said it just pushes on.  It certainly worked and would not budge when I gave it a reasonable pull.

 

I'm slightly more concerned about the plastic water pipes running in the walls of newer homes and their likelihood of splitting/bursting when they get to 30-50 years old.  I assume that good old soldered copper piping didn't do that.  Of course that was a lot more expensive and we were probably being slowly poisoned by the lead in the solder, but that's beside the point....!

 

 

 

 

Solder is for electrical generally. Silver solder for plumbing is lead free. In NZ we braze our copper water pipes which lasts a hundred years if the water is not too hard. No professional plumber would use push on fittings, in fact they can only use the crimping tool specific to the brand of fitting for warranty.


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  Reply # 1861075 8-Sep-2017 19:24
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richms: I've only has copper pipe fail at home. Pinhole leaks even along straight parts of it. Had buteline in to replace it and no leaks. Crimp tool costs a crapload tho.

 

I have had heaps of the old black plastic pipe and fittings fail. They also developed pin holes. Apaprenltly common with houses built in the 80's and 90's

 

Was your copper pipe 10-15 years old, as apparently there was a period where cheap chinese pipe was used which developed pin hole leaks.


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  Reply # 1861092 8-Sep-2017 21:27
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I have a mixture of 70's vintage coper and 80's vintage plastic. Copper has been reliable, plastic has split at the tee junctions.

 

It's hard to beat copper pipes and gutters - the only down side is price.

 

The other thing is that we've been using copper for centuries with no health effects, but we keep discovering health down-sides to plastic - BPA's, phthalates and now it breaks down into microscopic pieces and gets into our food and us.

 

Those aluminum crimps on the plastic pipes have to be kept 100% dry. No good in humid places, like under sinks and really bad in out-doors taps. Don't even think about burying it in the ground.

 

Ali is the worse material for any kind of crimp because it stress fractures and the corrosion gets inside it - it explodes in ex-foliation corrosion.

 

So far the 1/4" push fittings have held.

 

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eph

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  Reply # 1861105 8-Sep-2017 22:41
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Dynamic:

 

I'm slightly more concerned about the plastic water pipes running in the walls of newer homes and their likelihood of splitting/bursting when they get to 30-50 years old.  I assume that good old soldered copper piping didn't do that.  Of course that was a lot more expensive and we were probably being slowly poisoned by the lead in the solder, but that's beside the point....!

 

 

With PB you don't have to wait 30 years but people still put them in the houses... But PEX has been used in Europe for almost 50 years (and in USA for almost 40) so there is some history behind plastic water pipes.

 

As for the quick connect ones, I've just removed piece of the white PEX pipe with the push to connect joiner (must have been put there as some quick fix since the rest of the house was copper). There was no leak and it was actually quite difficult to pull the pipe out of it. I'd assume it must have been in the house for quite a few years.

 

 


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  Reply # 1861113 8-Sep-2017 23:40
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Those push fit connectors for 15mm polybute pipe also need to have stainless steel sleeves inserted into the pipe, to stop the pipe from being crushed. Lots of early plastic pipe failures were from the pipe being installed under too much stress. (only bend it in gentle bends). And of course the early fittings and black dux quest pipe. The early crimp tools also caused problems, as they were modified bolt cutters that left 2 ridges on each crimp ring. They eventually split and the pipe blows off the fitting.

 

Have also seen failures due to incorrectly installed mains pressure hot water cylinders. Causing the pipe to be subjected to 1400KPA (210PSI) whenever the cylinder reheated. No wonder the pipe failed.

 

Alot of the copper pipe failures was caused by the pipe not being cleaned properly at the factory. The pipe would last if it was used for hot water, and fail if used for cold water. Then there was copper pipes being embedded in concrete without being wrapped in denso tape or any other coating. Hot would typically fail due to thermal stresses. And alot of light gauge copper (thinwall copper) was used as well. Light gauge was fine for use for gas pipes, (low operating pressure and no corrosion on the inside as the gas is a hydrocarbon). But would eventually fail if used for water, and the thin nature of the pipe makes it harder to use compression fittings on it.

 

I use the Secura polybute system. Copper crimp rings and brass fittings. So no worries about moisture corroding the fittings. I mostly do maintenance and renovations, so often connecting onto existing polybute. And the crimp tool for that system gets into really small places that other tolls will never get to.






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  Reply # 1861121 9-Sep-2017 04:44
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Was there a basis for the "beware crappy push-fit plumbing connectors" assertion?

I used to own a townhouse that turned out to have the old black butylene pipe. This leaked a number of times through the ceiling between floors! I believe the cause was the copper crimp connectors rather than the pipe or that's what the plumber said.

They changed the colour of this pipe when the problems became apparent which, presumably, was to ringfence old installations to highlight the issue.

Recently, I put in a new pump house for my current home and installed a Grundfos Scala pump. It will come up with a fault warning if there is a leak in the system. It works extremely well and I found at least one drip leak in a garden tap run.

Perhaps all homes will eventually have leak detection technology especially with the emphasis on water conservation these days.

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  Reply # 1861123 9-Sep-2017 06:29
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It would help if the OP was more specific about the brand of fitting he was having trouble with. I hope he has made sure each grab ring he's adjusted has still locked onto the pipe. I've always found the ss sleeve poked into the end of the pipe gave enough taper on the end to push through the unmodified ring.

The black Dux Qest fittings were made of Acetal. These tend to crack, rt angle and T fittings seem most likely to split. The pipe also fails. I don't know what the difference is between black and grey PB pipe.



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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 1861152 9-Sep-2017 08:38
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I was using PWS connectors from Bunnings. I did use the metal sleeve inserts. Irrespective of the brand there is still the issue that the outer surface of the pipe has to be undamaged, but if it has been pulled through numerous roughly drilled holes in studs then that might not be the case where you want to insert your T-junction. Also the o-ring is so small, and it is hard to imagine it will still be supple in 10 year's time let alone 50.

 

With regard to crimping systems, are there ordinary hose-clamps that can be used instead of the collar and the crimping tool? I am think of the type of hose clamp that you tighten with a scree-driver, and are used for car plumbing, but it would have to be smaller of course than those used in cars.


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  Reply # 1861163 9-Sep-2017 09:32
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Are you doing your own plumbing?

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  Reply # 1861193 9-Sep-2017 10:13
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JessieB:

I was using PWS connectors from Bunnings. I did use the metal sleeve inserts. Irrespective of the brand there is still the issue that the outer surface of the pipe has to be undamaged, but if it has been pulled through numerous roughly drilled holes in studs then that might not be the case where you want to insert your T-junction. Also the o-ring is so small, and it is hard to imagine it will still be supple in 10 year's time let alone 50.


With regard to crimping systems, are there ordinary hose-clamps that can be used instead of the collar and the crimping tool? I am think of the type of hose clamp that you tighten with a scree-driver, and are used for car plumbing, but it would have to be smaller of course than those used in cars.



That brand looks similar to the original Hepworth. I think you just need more push ability. Save some of that energy that would be wasted pulling pipe through holes roughly. I wrap tape around the end and where a T might go.

Hose clamps work on softer plastic or rubber hoses. They'd probably be useless on PB pipe. Vehicle cooling systems work on much less pressure than mains water. One of the advantages of push fit is the lack of stress on the pipe itself.

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