Waterpumps , ballcocks , pressure tanks

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Waterpumps , ballcocks , pressure tanks

seretonin

58 posts

Master Geek

#274480 24-Aug-2020 22:55

So i live on a property that has its own bore since we arnt connected to the town water supply , we share the bore with two neighboring properties . the bore pump is connected to a water tank , its controlled by a ballcock float valve , was wondering if i could replace the ballcock vavle with some other system as everytime water is discharged , the pump flicks on , is there such a thing that would let the pump kick on when the water in the tank dropped bellow a certain level ? rather then the pump kicking on 50 times a day ? like so it would have to fill up once or twice a day ? since its currently governed by a ballcock valve ,what could i use besides a ballcock ?

second question

ive been thinking about metering my connection with the neighbors because as it stands every-time they use the water , the pumps kick on and it costs me money as i pay for the electricity, anyone ever been in this situation ? i think there is a caveat on my property to supply them with water , so there is a second pump on the property , that supplies pressure to my house , as the second property is some distance away (300 meters), would it be possible to get them to pump/suck the water with a pump installed on their end instead of mine ?

please forgive my ignorance when it comes to this stuff

SomeoneSomewhere

1805 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#2549142 25-Aug-2020 00:49

Is the ballcock a float switch switching the pump, or just a water valve and the pump is switched by pressure?

You might be able to increase the travel between on and off in the float switch (the hysteresis). A longer pole on it might do this, or there might be a proper adjustment. Wiring up two float switches to turn on and off the pump separately is also possible.

If it's a water valve, check that your expansion tank is properly pressurised and the bladder is intact.

Pumps can't suck water for much distance. Unless gravity is on your side, you probably need to pump it to them.

MrAmerica

128 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2549144 25-Aug-2020 04:01

You can use a float switch if your pump isnt too far from the tank to run the cable https://www.pumpsonline.co.nz/accessories/float-switch-and-counterweight..html

I use one of these http://www.smartwatertech.co.nz/ works very well and over long distance

I am in the same boat re supplying neighbours although I dont have to. When summer comes and Mrs Neighbour starts watering her garden My pump works a lot each time she empties the 30,000l tank but they are elderly and good buggers so I just wear it as the cost of being a decent neighbour.

Maybe you put a power monitor on your pump and get an idea of actual cost and then talk to them, also you have maintenance costs to consider as well, pumps dont last forever.

Ge0rge

2056 posts

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#2549151 25-Aug-2020 07:15

We're on tank water. The tanks are set in the ground about 30m from the house, with the pump in a shed beside them. Every time you turn a tap on, the pump runs - it's on a pressure switch. If it didn't turn on like that, we'd have no water pressure - it's a fact of being on a tank supply for us.

In your situation, how does the water get from the tank to your house? Is there another pump that keeps your house pressure up, or is it gravity fed?

If it is gravity, and the bore-pump you've described in no way is linked to the pressure at your tap, you could put an electrical timer on the pump. Have it set so the pump can run once an hour for say five minutes. If no water has been used in the past hour, it won't run. If it has, it will fill the tank in that five minutes, and then turn off for the rest of the hour. You'd need to work out the duty cycle to make sure the tank was getting filled each time, or the tank would eventually run dry.

Bear in mind you're not going to save any power by deferring the run time - the pump either replaces the small amount of water lost each time a tap is turned on, or it runs for all those small increments added together - it still has to move the same amount of water.

pipe60

127 posts

Master Geek

#2549208 25-Aug-2020 08:02

Could use a Stewart float switch simple reliable design.

https://www.globelink.co.nz/products/switching-controls/floatswitch/complete/stewart-floatswitch-complete/

The weight is the turn off point and the disc is the turn on point and make the rope what ever length you need for tank size.

MrAmerica

128 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2549227 25-Aug-2020 09:00

Ge0rge:
We're on tank water. The tanks are set in the ground about 30m from the house, with the pump in a shed beside them. Every time you turn a tap on, the pump runs - it's on a pressure switch. If it didn't turn on like that, we'd have no water pressure - it's a fact of being on a tank supply for us.

In your situation, how does the water get from the tank to your house? Is there another pump that keeps your house pressure up, or is it gravity fed?

If it is gravity, and the bore-pump you've described in no way is linked to the pressure at your tap, you could put an electrical timer on the pump. Have it set so the pump can run once an hour for say five minutes. If no water has been used in the past hour, it won't run. If it has, it will fill the tank in that five minutes, and then turn off for the rest of the hour. You'd need to work out the duty cycle to make sure the tank was getting filled each time, or the tank would eventually run dry.

Bear in mind you're not going to save any power by deferring the run time - the pump either replaces the small amount of water lost each time a tap is turned on, or it runs for all those small increments added together - it still has to move the same amount of water.

If you put a pressure tank on the pump output it will not run every time, it will only run when the pressure in the tank drops to the set pressure, usually 28psi and sit idle while you draw from the tank. It will add years to your pump.

I have a 300l pressure tank on my pump and the pump sits idle most of any day. I just bought one of these for a new pump going in soon https://goodsdirect2u.co.nz/product/water-pump-pressure-tank-horizontal-100l/

Scott3

3980 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#2549240 25-Aug-2020 09:37

seretonin:

So i live on a property that has its own bore since we arnt connected to the town water supply , we share the bore with two neighboring properties . the bore pump is connected to a water tank , its controlled by a ballcock float valve , was wondering if i could replace the ballcock vavle with some other system as everytime water is discharged , the pump flicks on , is there such a thing that would let the pump kick on when the water in the tank dropped bellow a certain level ? rather then the pump kicking on 50 times a day ? like so it would have to fill up once or twice a day ? since its currently governed by a ballcock valve ,what could i use besides a ballcock ?

second question

ive been thinking about metering my connection with the neighbors because as it stands every-time they use the water , the pumps kick on and it costs me money as i pay for the electricity, anyone ever been in this situation ? i think there is a caveat on my property to supply them with water , so there is a second pump on the property , that supplies pressure to my house , as the second property is some distance away (300 meters), would it be possible to get them to pump/suck the water with a pump installed on their end instead of mine ?

please forgive my ignorance when it comes to this stuff

You can get this kind of valve, Pump will kick in at low level, and run untill high level is reached:

https://www.pumpsonline.co.nz/accessories/pump-controllers/rain-harvesting/bigboy-differential-reservoir-valve.html

You are right to be concerned about this. Bore pumps are generally rated to run continuously, but not to have lots of stops and starts each hour.

Regarding sucking water long distance, in short it basically dosn't work. If you want to run full analysis, you can look up the NPSH number for the pump (typically 3 - 5 m H20). This is the max pressure that the pump can suck. Can be compaired to the head loss in the pipe run... But there is very unlikely there is only 3 - 5 m head loss in a 300m pipe run. You could consider doing a 300m power run, but the wire would be pritty expensive.

I have family that get water from a shared bore (several properties) - They get billed a m^3 rate to recover the operational costs of the system.

Each house is required to have a fairly large water tank, and a differential valve. In reality I think not all houses got the differential valves. Rather than fix that issue it ended up that the bore runs on a timer, so it kicks in in the middle of the night and runs until all the houses tanks have taken what their float valves allow, avoiding excessive energy costs from stopping and starting the bore pumps.

[edit] - here is another differential valve, with a video of it working:

https://www.jobevalves.com/products/product/topaz-differential

MikeAqua

7785 posts

Uber Geek

#2549241 25-Aug-2020 09:43

If you have to supply your neighbour water but not electricity, I would install charge them for the electricity used (actual costs). That seems reasonable. If I was your neighbour I would be giving you some money toward pump cost without being asked.

If your neighbours don't play ball, then look at the covenant and restrict their supply to the bare minimum you have to provide.

On our rental property, we had planted a lot of trees and an irrigation system, because we planned to move back there and wanted to keep developing the property. I put in a separate pump running via a dedicated CB and a meter - little thing shaped like a circuit breaker. I reimbursed the tenants for the electricity used, as the trees weren't their problem.

Mike

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Ge0rge

2056 posts

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#2549410 25-Aug-2020 12:40

MrAmerica:

If you put a pressure tank on the pump output it will not run every time, it will only run when the pressure in the tank drops to the set pressure, usually 28psi and sit idle while you draw from the tank. It will add years to your pump.

I have a 300l pressure tank on my pump and the pump sits idle most of any day. I just bought one of these for a new pump going in soon https://goodsdirect2u.co.nz/product/water-pump-pressure-tank-horizontal-100l/

I replaced what you're describing with a variable drive, constant pressure pump - never any pressure loss, no matter how many taps are turned on, no pressure vessel or bladder to worry about, and no "boost" when the pump kicks in.

MrAmerica

128 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2549468 25-Aug-2020 14:27

Ge0rge:
MrAmerica:

If you put a pressure tank on the pump output it will not run every time, it will only run when the pressure in the tank drops to the set pressure, usually 28psi and sit idle while you draw from the tank. It will add years to your pump.

I have a 300l pressure tank on my pump and the pump sits idle most of any day. I just bought one of these for a new pump going in soon https://goodsdirect2u.co.nz/product/water-pump-pressure-tank-horizontal-100l/

I replaced what you're describing with a variable drive, constant pressure pump - never any pressure loss, no matter how many taps are turned on, no pressure vessel or bladder to worry about, and no "boost" when the pump kicks in.

I had to laugh, I went from a variable pressure to the pressure tank when the pump controller died after 3 years (Dont buy Onga). A case of horses for courses for the pair of us:)

Variable pump was almost twice the price to replace so went to pressure tank setup this time.

I forgot to mention I also have a pressure limiting valve on the output set at 4 Bar and the inlet pressure feeding that is 5 to 6 Bar so no boost ether on that design, although before I put the limiting valve on I never noticed any boost as the tank acts like a capacitor and absorbs the hit from the pump. I have a 100m run from the pump to the house using a 63mm pipe so I get a pressure tank effect with that as well. Pipe rated at 6.2 Bar, hence the limiting valve set to 4.

Delphinus

611 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2549496 25-Aug-2020 14:41

What pumps would you recommend if not Onga?

Ge0rge

2056 posts

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#2549552 25-Aug-2020 15:39

Mine is a Grundfos

panther2

374 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2549588 25-Aug-2020 16:26

Davey pumps are good too

Got a groundfo for house never had issues good reliability. Recently got a wallace pump backup and for garden was surprised at how good it runs considering they are pretty cheap

MrAmerica

128 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2549601 25-Aug-2020 16:47

I was told Grundfos by a plumber mate who installs lots of pumps in the Pacific islands, but have heard Davy are also good.

andrewNZ

2487 posts

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Inactive user

#2549632 25-Aug-2020 19:04

As well as floats, there are electrical control options like level switches or floatless probes.
The options actually available to you will vary based on how everything is currently set up.

I have little experience with bore pumps, but it seems odd to control it off output pressure, that will naturally lead to excessive starting.
Controlling the pump directly from tank level seems like a much better idea.