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bendud

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#281172 3-Feb-2021 21:11
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I have had a good read of some excellent threads on here so hopefully am up to speed on some aspects, but would appreciate some of your wisdom on pulling it all together.

 

Here's the situation - it's a fairly big project:

 

  • home is in Dunedin; >100yrs old, two stories, large and draughty, of two layer timber walls with roughcast over.. At the time of writing, we have reasonable insulation in the roof space, negligible insulation in most of the walls (maybe 10-20%), and nil under the house. It is dry (it's so draughty it dries really well 😂) and most of the rooms are big. Dining room stud is 3.5m, and the room is 4.5mx6.5m; lounge is same but 8m+ long. So plenty of cubic metres to keep warm...
  • We currently have three open fireplaces, two night stores, and two Daikin low wall single split heat pumps running off separate external units (one upstairs, one downstairs) and outside of summer only really use the kitchen/living room area which we can keep warm, and not much else downstairs. Upstair the heat pump in the hall is supplemented by electric blankets and a couple of wall panel heaters when it's baltic. This stops us getting hypothermic overnight. But it's not exactly warm.
  • The piles have rotted out and the house is slumped over decades to the tune of 30cm front to back. ("Those totara piles will be good for a hundred years" they said - over a hundred years ago.Now we have conical piles of sawdust). It's happened over many years so slow and undramatic (so far) but I have a magnificent contour map of the inside of our house, which has a lot of contours on it.... Engineering and technical reports are in and the builders are on the case with the re-piling. The front of the house (lounge, hall, dining room) will have the floors removed, then replaced level after the piles go down. The stud height and skirting boards will hide the drop across the room and the flat floor will be a novelty! Previously everything on the floor just rolled to the corner of the dining room...
  • The walls are lath and plaster, so basically sand held together by horse hair and hope. We aren't going to be removing this currently. So the walls will remain uninsulated. The sash windows will remain but gradually renovated unit by unit. We understand the fact that we will end up spending more on electricity until we have the walls and windows sorted. We will also plug off the chimneys when the rooms are heated rather than just send all the warm air up them.
  • This is ideal time for rewiring out the old rubber armoured and asbestos cables and conduit, getting an underfloor membrane down, and underfloor insulation plus a heating solution. We are not going to be putting in radiators, and don't want to go diesel, wood pellets or gas. So heat pumps seem the way forward. 
  • We don't want loads of separate heat pump units lined up externally, but the two existing ones will stay as they cover other areas of the house. We need to heat the hallway, dining room and lounge which run from the front of the house in the current round of reno. We can't fit ducts and vents in the ceiling, but can put in the floor and skirting boards. Clearance under the floor depends on how much we can dig out!
  • The CEO prefers low wall units to high.

So I think the options are:

 

     

  1. three single-split heat pumps, one in each room. Short runs from interior to exterior units but messy externally. Independent control for each room. Lots of remotes...
  2. A multi-split system. Will lead to some long runs from external to internal units, but less ugly external units.
  3. ducted hot air under the floor from a big external unit.

 

I think the ducted underfloor solution is probably the best bet (but expensive) if we have an experienced installer. Possibly https://www.warmandcool.co.nz/ducted-heating but keen to hear other people's experiences and thoughts. For control, the old Daikins have IR line of site remotes (and worked adequately, but not well off a Pebble controller). I'm not heavily invested in online control and we are an Apple-heavy household so would use HomeKit if anyone supported it. The AirTouch 4 looks good but again would be nice to hear of people's experiences with different setups given the cost. If there was an easy way to get the old Daikins integrated too then that would be of interest (if not outrageous expensive). 

 

The aims for phase 1 reno are:

 

  • to have a lounge and dining room (will become a kids area) that we can use all year round
  • a house that isn't falling down, and all borer treated
  • safely re-wired and with some ethernet runs for TVs etc
  • and a warm house downstairs means inevitably a warmer house upstairs too. 

Really interested to hear your experiences, especially if local and have used firms round here.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

b





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timmmay
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  #2646659 3-Feb-2021 21:21
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I suggest a zoned ducted system, though two story might be tricky. How's the under floor and ceiling spaces? You might almost need a separate unit for each, or a combination. One under-floor ducted downstairs, another upstairs.

 

A small to medium ducted heat pump is about $9K to $12K, large more like $16K to $20K. HRV / Panasonic are often cheapest but don't do zones, Daikin can be a little more but zoned. Look at the Blizzard in Wellington doing $10K zoned.

 

You're obviously going to have to fix drafts and stop air movement before heating is worthwhile and economic. In Wellington wall insulation made some difference, not near as much as doubling the ceiling insulation did though. Under floor made a bit of difference but the ground sheet made it all smell nicer. Double glazing helped a bit, though oddly lets more sound in than the old windows than the thick wooden frames with a glass pane and retrofit plastic frame - proper stuff looks a lot nicer though. Every house is different though, down south wall insulation might be worthwhile, but a hassle to install.

 

Sounds like you have a multi-year project on your hands.




antoniosk
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  #2646666 3-Feb-2021 21:30
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All i can say is yikes. We had something slightly similar in Wellington, and it took a LOT of work to bring it back to something remotely approaching good.

 

1. Repile. If the house is moving this much, all your other work is for naught

 

2. Windows - do what you can with gap blockers, paint into the join where the window meets the frame. it's tiny but it will help - a small draught is amazing where it can get in

 

3. Carpets upstairs and on the stairs. Makes a REMARKABLE difference. Along with thermal curtains. But only if you tackle (2), which will depend on (1)

 

4. Close the fireplaces up, or look at getting the flue close updated with a fitted guard of some sort. Else youre wasting your time. A friend of mine had an open fireplace and could never get the rooms above 16C until he tackled that hole in the house.

 

We have gas central heating at home downstairs, but then welly has piped natural gas. It does make a difference, quickly fills the whole room and dries out morning moisture fast.

 

I've been looking into heatpumps for the last month, and Otago/Southland seem to be ground zero for stress testing them. The mitsi/rinnai/panasonic ones seem pretty good with adequare apps, which feel fun but are ultimately just expensive bling... I think all will struggle with where you are until you tackle the biggest sources of heat loss.

 

Gotta love these 'heritage character' nightmares.





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Antoniosk


bendud

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  #2646667 3-Feb-2021 21:31
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Thanks, yes it's going to be long, expensive, and phased!

 

We aren't planning on doing anything upstairs. It's usually OK up here outside of the coldest weather and we seem to be used to it... So this phase is downstairs only. I guess in the future we could add another system upstairs if need be.

 

Windows will remain wooden sash but with double glazed units rather than thin single glaze, plus draft proofing (none of the windows are remotely square due to the house shifting. Most are 1cm higher on the uphill side! 

 

Blizzard link looks well priced, thanks. Space under the floor depends on how far we dig - there's a digger parked in the lounge so easy enough.

 

cheers

 

b





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bendud

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  #2646670 3-Feb-2021 21:35
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Also, good points re curtains. All rooms have thick, fleece lined full height curtains and the top of the curtain tracks are sealed so work well when closed (the old one in my eldest son's room used to billow into the room in a sou'wester even with he window shut!). 

 

Re-piling looks to be the easy bit :-)

 

b





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geoffwnz
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  #2646741 4-Feb-2021 08:39
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That sounds like a "fun" mega project.  Would be interested to see updates on your progress as things are changed and what effect they have.

 

Sounds like you've got a good handle on what you need to do.

 

Given the high stud, ducted floor based vents would seem to be the better option than ceiling.

 

Best bet would be to find one or three ducted heat pump installers in your area to come and give you some full house system recommendations along with some partial or staged setup options that you can work your way through. 

 

Given you already have Daiken units, contact Daiken NZ directly and they will either be able to work through the options, or as they did with me, they will get your local Daiken installer (Blizzard mentioned above) to get in touch with you.  If you are lucky, there might be a way to integrate the existing units into a ducted system, or they might suggest just replacing with one suitably sized ducted system instead.

 

I can't yet comment on how good the Daiken ducted system is as I'm only at the quote stage currently.  Have yet to get it installed.  But I'm definitely looking forward to being able to get the summer indoors temperatures down from high 20's to a more agreeable level, especially in the evenings.  In winter it's more about balancing the temperature across the house where needed.





timmmay
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  #2646798 4-Feb-2021 10:11
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geoffwnz:

 

I can't yet comment on how good the Daiken ducted system is as I'm only at the quote stage currently.  Have yet to get it installed.  But I'm definitely looking forward to being able to get the summer indoors temperatures down from high 20's to a more agreeable level, especially in the evenings.  In winter it's more about balancing the temperature across the house where needed.

 

 

Putting in a ducted unit is quite a bit of work. Took HRV two days. It was super, super hot in the ceiling, really should only be done in winter or at least cloudy days.

 

Something no-one mentions much is air return. If you don't do that rooms can over-pressure, pushing warmed air out, and sucking air in from places you don't want it. Undercutting doors is fine but apparently you need about an inch undercut to give the airflow required. I'm reading about grills (door and wall) and ceiling transfer ducts for air return today. HRV didn't give returns any consideration at all. Make sure this is considered in your design. Good start here , here. I'll probably have more thoughts about that later.


geoffwnz
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  #2646853 4-Feb-2021 10:20
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timmmay:

 

geoffwnz:

 

I can't yet comment on how good the Daiken ducted system is as I'm only at the quote stage currently.  Have yet to get it installed.  But I'm definitely looking forward to being able to get the summer indoors temperatures down from high 20's to a more agreeable level, especially in the evenings.  In winter it's more about balancing the temperature across the house where needed.

 

 

Putting in a ducted unit is quite a bit of work. Took HRV two days. It was super, super hot in the ceiling, really should only be done in winter or at least cloudy days.

 

Something no-one mentions much is air return. If you don't do that rooms can over-pressure, pushing warmed air out, and sucking air in from places you don't want it. Undercutting doors is fine but apparently you need about an inch undercut to give the airflow required. I'm reading about grills (door and wall) and ceiling transfer ducts for air return today. HRV didn't give returns any consideration at all. Make sure this is considered in your design. Good start here , here. I'll probably have more thoughts about that later.

 

 

Good point.  Will discuss with installer since I tend to have two distinct areas in the house that are often closed off to each other.  May pay to have two return ducts, one in each area.  And maybe look at similar grilles for the bedroom doors.





 
 
 

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Paul1977
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  #2646892 4-Feb-2021 10:58
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I have AirTouch 4. I think it would be fine for just one (or even multiple) ducted system(s), but there are issues when adding a heat recovery ventilator into the mix (which we have) which would make me think twice about getting it if you are looking at an HRV as well. For anything but basic on/off timers you need to use IFTTT, which is now a paid subscription if wishing to creating more than three basic applet. In addition the AitTouch developers aren't prioritizing improving IFTTT functionality because apparently the uptake hasn't been very high.


D1023319
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  #2647044 4-Feb-2021 13:27
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I have Airtouch 4 which is very easy to use.

I'd suggest retain separate systems - for upstairs and downstairs as you currently have.
I imagine your upstairs gets much hotter than down and you may even have a requirement for simultaneous cooling upstairs and heating down.

I have underfloor ducted with 5 zones and a separate wall mounted unit that has its own external unit.

As the aim is to have a circular motion of the air - the inlets are central but as you have more outlets this means the pipework for the inlets is substantial in size under the house.

 

In terms of old windows - I do like Pelmets for retaining heat in the room.


bendud

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  #2668562 5-Mar-2021 20:16
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Update time

 

Can't see an easy way to resize the photos, sorry.

 

All sorts of fun. If you ever wonder what a mini-digger looks like driving in to your lounge, I can tell you :-) house is now propped up on various RSJs while the piles are dug in. Needs about 2m deep augur holes to reach solid enough clay, so it's a bit of a mess outside. Waste and foul water drains all replaced too. 

 

Meanwhile, the heating question. Mrs B is averse to radiators and underfloor, and (weirdly) likes heat pumps. each to their own. Of the 5 companies approached, the expensive ones suggested radiators run off a HWHP, but no-one felt there was enough clearance for a zoned ducted underfloor hot air system. The two existing Daikin units probably incompatible with the wireless units, so it looks like wall mounted controllers in each room. The pipes and wiring are in but not the new units as yet.

 

So we have a multi-split install - large external Daikin unit, with three internal low wall interior units. Not sure currently how the controllers will work - quote is for wall mounted controls. Not sure what that means for app based controllers...

 

Some photos of the neater bits ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





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