Electrical - Welder - Plugs

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Electrical - Welder - Plugs - Cable

WanaGo

149 posts

Master Geek

#284072 29-Mar-2021 13:32

Hello,

Just a question to Sparkies and the like on here.

I have a single phase inverter welder I just got, it has a thick American 220V cable on it with a plug I have never seen before. 12AWG cable, 3.31mm2 cores, about a meter long.

Anyway, the back of the unit states 21A Eff current, 40A Peak. However the manual states its 220V+/-10%, 30A rated current. So assume the latter.

Plugs here are 10A for standard domestic, or 15A with the larger earth.
Then there are the industrial ones that have all sorts, 10, 15, 20, 32A etc, in single phase.

I then found there are oven plugs, which are similar shape to the regular 10/15A plugs, but have larger phase and neutral pins, and a weird C shape earth.

Pics for an example as they were easily found online.

I am just reaching out to see if its OK to use this plug/socket combo on things other than Ovens. I assume it is fine.

Plan is to cut the end off the cable first shown, and put a NZ plug on it. Ideally I don't want to go to the large orange industrial plug and socket as I don't need IP66 ratings etc. This Oven socket would work well if its OK to use.

2nd question, what is the TPS cable size appropriate for a dedicated socket back to the switchboard, nothing else on it. Will standard 2.5mm TPS do the job, and handle the 32A socket OK, or do I need to jump up to 4.0mm? As said, its only going to be this one plug/socket on this line, nothing else. Its about 6m to the switchboard.

I will be getting a sparky to do the work, but I am just getting the info required before I get them involved, so I am not upsold. I would normally do this all myself and might still do a bunch of it, but ill get them to wire it into the switchboard and sign it off.

Fully understand about advise given, no liability etc, just after some info thats all.

Thanks

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3427 posts

Uber Geek

#2682521 29-Mar-2021 14:22

The diameter of the cable used will depend on the distance back to the board, which you say is 6 metres.

There's calculations that can be done or IIRC , sparkies have a table in the back of one of their books.

Discuss with your electrician as there's a few other factors, in addition to nominal load, that affect cable diameter.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

gbwelly

1243 posts

Uber Geek

#2682524 29-Mar-2021 14:26

Just to be nosy, what model welder is it?

WanaGo

149 posts

Master Geek

#2682531 29-Mar-2021 14:38

gbwelly:

Just to be nosy, what model welder is it?

https://yeswelder.com/products/tig250p-acdc

WanaGo

149 posts

Master Geek

#2682552 29-Mar-2021 14:42

elpenguino:

The diameter of the cable used will depend on the distance back to the board, which you say is 6 metres.

There's calculations that can be done or IIRC , sparkies have a table in the back of one of their books.

Discuss with your electrician as there's a few other factors, in addition to nominal load, that affect cable diameter.

Yep, great, will do doing that.

I am assuming the use of the oven type plug is inconsequential, no law against using an oven plug for a welder I assume... as long as its within the specs.

Ge0rge

2056 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2682557 29-Mar-2021 14:54

For 32A, you'll be looking at 6mm cable.

I personally can't fathom why you would want to use an oven plug -they're designed for ovens, and not designed to be plugged/unplugged on a regular basis. While I understand you don't feel you need greater IP rating, the PDL56 series of plugs or similar are designed to also provide protection against dropping the plug when you disconnect it, protection to the mating surfaces and mechanical attachement to the wall - ie threading on once plugged in.

If one of my sparkies suggested we use an oven plug for a welder, they'd get a swift kick in the backside.

WanaGo

149 posts

Master Geek

#2682572 29-Mar-2021 15:45

Ge0rge: For 32A, you'll be looking at 6mm cable.

I personally can't fathom why you would want to use an oven plug -they're designed for ovens, and not designed to be plugged/unplugged on a regular basis. While I understand you don't feel you need greater IP rating, the PDL56 series of plugs or similar are designed to also provide protection against dropping the plug when you disconnect it, protection to the mating surfaces and mechanical attachement to the wall - ie threading on once plugged in.

If one of my sparkies suggested we use an oven plug for a welder, they'd get a swift kick in the backside.

Fair enough, but I wont be unplugging it or moving it around, it will live where it lives and only be unplugged when sell and move house - which wont be happening anytime soon. So drop protection etc is of no relevance for my use case.

6.0mm cable for 6 meters direct to the fuse box.... surely not... That is hugely larger core size than the flex out of the machine itself.

I was thinking 4.0mm, but was hoping for 2.5mm given the short length. Given how many hot points you can put on a string of 2.5mm TPS...

http://www.level.org.nz/energy/electrical-design/wiring/wiring-materials/

I'll call my local sparky shortly.

Ge0rge

2056 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2682595 29-Mar-2021 16:12

Remember that the flex isn't inside a wall, surrounded by insulation, and that multiple socket calcs are not expecting that you are drawing 10A from every socket on the circuit at once.

By way of example, a 4m feed to an induction hob with maximum draw of 30A required 6mm cable in our recently renovated kitchen - as pretty much shown by the page you linked to above.

At the end of the day it comes down to what the sparky is willing to sign off on - but you won't be getting 2.5mm cable for 32A...

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Scott3

3973 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2682647 29-Mar-2021 16:34

If the nameplate on it doesn't include 230v, it is deemed not to be suitable for NZ power, and no sparky is going to want to touch it.

That said, 220 & 230v are close enough that it will likley work without issue. But there could be some issues with NZ's different supply frequency, and the fact that the welder is likely designed for split phase (110v on each wire, 180 deg out of phase), rather than NZ single phase (no voltage on one wire, and 230v on the other).

The USA plug on the unit is a 50 amp one. But the USA ratings require de-rating to 80% for continuous loads.

I would avoid oven plugs. Go for industrial style. Either PDL 56 series (the defacto standard for industrial plugs in NZ), or go for caravan style CEE plugs (often sold under the Mennekes brand) if you want a non proprietary solution - I think these plugs are more common on the likes of construction sites.

Only thing is single phase plugs industrial plugs over 32A are pretty rare (there is a 63A one in the CCE range). No idea if you need to accommodate the 40A peak current, or just the 30A rated current.

WanaGo

149 posts

Master Geek

#2682682 29-Mar-2021 17:42

Scott3:

If the nameplate on it doesn't include 230v, it is deemed not to be suitable for NZ power, and no sparky is going to want to touch it.

That said, 220 & 230v are close enough that it will likley work without issue. But there could be some issues with NZ's different supply frequency, and the fact that the welder is likely designed for split phase (110v on each wire, 180 deg out of phase), rather than NZ single phase (no voltage on one wire, and 230v on the other).

The USA plug on the unit is a 50 amp one. But the USA ratings require de-rating to 80% for continuous loads.

I would avoid oven plugs. Go for industrial style. Either PDL 56 series (the defacto standard for industrial plugs in NZ), or go for caravan style CEE plugs (often sold under the Mennekes brand) if you want a non proprietary solution - I think these plugs are more common on the likes of construction sites.

Only thing is single phase plugs industrial plugs over 32A are pretty rare (there is a 63A one in the CCE range). No idea if you need to accommodate the 40A peak current, or just the 30A rated current.

Understand about the nameplate, its 220VAC +/- 10%, which is 198 to 242VAC range.

Sparky doesn't need to touch the welder, they wont be the ones plugging it in. In this case though, he has seen it and cant see an issue at this stage.

Yep the NZ vs US thing, where theirs is 110VAC Dual phase to get 220VAC, vs our single phase 230VAC etc. This welder is single phase and states it on the nameplate, and its inverter, so it converts it to DC in its first stage anyway, so its a non issue I don't believe. Its not like an old school US appliance that uses dual phase 220V, which wont work in NZ.

It also works 50Hz/60HZ, so its not an issue for our 50Hz.

I have ordered 56 series socket and plug, seems to be viable for a test, and a local sparky is coming on Wednesday and will do some tests, but he doesn't see a problem so far, but will know more when he gets here.

Will find out what gauge wire he recommends for the distance, he will bring some rolls so will have options on hand.

Scott3

3973 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2682711 29-Mar-2021 18:59

WanaGo:

Understand about the nameplate, its 220VAC +/- 10%, which is 198 to 242VAC range.

Sparky doesn't need to touch the welder, they wont be the ones plugging it in. In this case though, he has seen it and cant see an issue at this stage.

Yep the NZ vs US thing, where theirs is 110VAC Dual phase to get 220VAC, vs our single phase 230VAC etc. This welder is single phase and states it on the nameplate, and its inverter, so it converts it to DC in its first stage anyway, so its a non issue I don't believe. Its not like an old school US appliance that uses dual phase 220V, which wont work in NZ.

It also works 50Hz/60HZ, so its not an issue for our 50Hz.

I have ordered 56 series socket and plug, seems to be viable for a test, and a local sparky is coming on Wednesday and will do some tests, but he doesn't see a problem so far, but will know more when he gets here.

Will find out what gauge wire he recommends for the distance, he will bring some rolls so will have options on hand.

If the machine matches the one pasted, it seems fairly straightforward. Have a sparky install a 32A single phase PDL (or CEE) socket at a location of your choosing. They will do the wire sizing calc for that run to the circuit board, and install a 32A breaker & RCD to protect the wire feeding the socket. It's likley will have the correct size of wire in their van (its the same size as one would use for feeding a 4 burner induction cooktop). Either youself or the sparkey can chop the overseas plug off the welder, and (assuming the cord is long enough) install the matching socket on it.

Seeing that nameplate makes me a bit more comfortable.

Be aware that that if your house is on a single phase feed, you risk blowing the pole fuse (typically 60A), in the unusual situation, you were doing some welding, and somebody else was cooking up a storm, running the tumble dryer, and a few heater simultaneously. Sparky may do a sizing calc for the whole house, and insist that you have a main breaker (user reset able) installed to protect the pole fuse (need to get the lines company out).

pipe60

127 posts

Master Geek

#2682715 29-Mar-2021 19:01

4.0mm2 to a pdl56s 32amp socket or 6mm2 as its normally more common to have some. Depending on the install you come close to getting away with 2.5mm2 but better to go bigger.

WanaGo

149 posts

Master Geek

#2682734 29-Mar-2021 19:54

Scott3:

If the machine matches the one pasted, it seems fairly straightforward. Have a sparky install a 32A single phase PDL (or CEE) socket at a location of your choosing. They will do the wire sizing calc for that run to the circuit board, and install a 32A breaker & RCD to protect the wire feeding the socket. It's likley will have the correct size of wire in their van (its the same size as one would use for feeding a 4 burner induction cooktop). Either youself or the sparkey can chop the overseas plug off the welder, and (assuming the cord is long enough) install the matching socket on it.

Seeing that nameplate makes me a bit more comfortable.

Be aware that that if your house is on a single phase feed, you risk blowing the pole fuse (typically 60A), in the unusual situation, you were doing some welding, and somebody else was cooking up a storm, running the tumble dryer, and a few heater simultaneously. Sparky may do a sizing calc for the whole house, and insist that you have a main breaker (user reset able) installed to protect the pole fuse (need to get the lines company out).

Yep, Yep, all in line with what I was hoping for.

House is 3 phase, split amongst the house. I imagine he will pick the most unloaded phase for our house, but I guess it wont be clear what the neighbours will be on, so here is hoping. Ill leave that part to him.

Cheers.

WanaGo

149 posts

Master Geek

#2682735 29-Mar-2021 19:57

pipe60:

4.0mm2 to a pdl56s 32amp socket or 6mm2 as its normally more common to have some. Depending on the install you come close to getting away with 2.5mm2 but better to go bigger.

I am hoping 2.5mm2 will be sufficient. I don't see myself maxing out the welder current for what I am planning to do with it, so therefore the draw from the mains will match accordingly. Still though, there is the potential so I guess the sparky will size based on that. But really I cant see myself welding anything required to pull the full 250A on the welders output, but things may change I guess.

Thanks for the input, 4.0mm2 or 6.0mm2 might be best...

Scott3

3973 posts

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#2682740 29-Mar-2021 20:06

WanaGo:

Yep, Yep, all in line with what I was hoping for.

House is 3 phase, split amongst the house. I imagine he will pick the most unloaded phase for our house, but I guess it wont be clear what the neighbours will be on, so here is hoping. Ill leave that part to him.

Cheers.

With three phase there should be plenty of power to go around, sparky can re-balance phases if needed, but picking the lightest loaded phase should be fine.

No need to worry about the neighbors. In short, that's the lines companies problem.

The longer answer is that the lines company will have dozens of homes at least fed by a single transformer, and they will have allocated single phase houses such to roughly balance load across phases, and will be working on a capacity factor assumption that not everybody will max out their connections at the same time. Generally work's OK, although apparently in some student area's transformers were close to tripping when a popular power company offers a free power for a one hour block...

Scott3

3973 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2682742 29-Mar-2021 20:09

WanaGo:

I am hoping 2.5mm2 will be sufficient. I don't see myself maxing out the welder current for what I am planning to do with it, so therefore the draw from the mains will match accordingly. Still though, there is the potential so I guess the sparky will size based on that. But really I cant see myself welding anything required to pull the full 250A on the welders output, but things may change I guess.

Thanks for the input, 4.0mm2 or 6.0mm2 might be best...

If it is feeding a 32A socket, best practice would be for the sparky to also size the wiring and breaker for 32A. Who knows what else might get plugged in to that socket at some time in the future. Perhaps a 32A kiln, or EV charger, either of which are capable of drawing the full rated current continuously.

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