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Rikkitic

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#284622 5-May-2021 13:09
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I am having a pointless argument with someone about a rural water system. Because of the current dry spell, the rainwater tank is low and it needs to be supplemented with spring water. The problem with spring water (and the reason for the rain water tank) is that the spring water is very hard, with a high calcium content. This buggers things like the wetback and hot water heater. 

 

The argument: The other party insists that the spring water should be added while there is still rain water in the tank, as this will dilute the spring water, reducing the calcium content and bad effect thereof. I say it makes no difference when the spring water is added as long as the total volume of spring water remains the same. If it is initially mixed with rain water, the calcium content will be less initially but only until all the water is used up. If spring water is only added after all the rain water is gone, the calcium content will be higher but total exposure time to the calcium will be less since it wasn't added until after the rain water was all used up. The assumption in both cases is that spring water would continue to be used until it rains.

 

As far as I can see, both cases are just different ways of getting to the same point. In the first case the spring water is blended with the remaining rain water. In the second case, it is added after all the rain water has been used. In both cases, the total amount of calcium put into the system would be the same. The only exception would be if it happens to rain just after the tank runs dry but just before the spring water is added. 

 

So which is it? Does it make any difference calcification-wise whether the hard water is blended or added afterwards? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





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cshwone
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  #2702197 5-May-2021 13:20
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Or alternatively just fit a water softener/filtration system and the problem goes away :)




BlueShift
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  #2702198 5-May-2021 13:20
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The overall amount of calcium passing through the system will be the same, but the concentration in the water will be lower if its mixed with existing water.

 

Therefore the water will be less "hard" while its being used.

 

If you were running it through a calcium filter, the outcome would be the same, but (and I'm not an expert) I'd imagine lower concentrations for a longer time would accrete less in the system than higher for a bit shorter.

 

A probably dead-wrong analogy. Would you rather drink 2 tablespoons of salt in 1 glass of water inside 30 minutes, or 2 tablespoons in 2 litres of water over 24 hours? Its the same amount of salt passing through you, but you'd appreciate the dilution...


Rikkitic

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  #2702200 5-May-2021 13:30
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cshwone:

 

Or alternatively just fit a water softener/filtration system and the problem goes away :)

 

 

And the salt goes way up! We also have to drink this water (which is great, by the way).

 

 

 

 





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frankv
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  #2702304 5-May-2021 13:58
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TL;dr:

 

Depends on how acidic your rainwater & groundwater are. At pH above 10 (more alkaline, less acidic) you get carbonate ions, which can join with calcium ions to make lime. Normal, clean rain has a pH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, so you're better to mix them, since that will move the overall pH away from the 10 or so where carbonates form. It will also reduce the concentration of calcium ions, so it will be further away from saturation and less likely to precipitate at all.

 

 

http://micromaintain.ucanr.edu/Solutions/know/Chemical_precipitation/Treatments_to_Minimize_Clogging_182/Lime_calcium_carbonate/

 

The degree to which calcium carbonate occurs in water at atmospheric pressure depends on the pH and temperature of the water. At pH values of less than about 6, mostly dissolved carbon dioxide and a small amount of carbonic acid exist in water. At pH values of between about 6.5 and 10, bicarbonate is dominant. At pH values greater than about 10.5, the carbonate ion dominates. The causes of precipitation include the following.

 

  • For groundwater, pumping reduces the pressure of the water as it flows into the well. This reduction releases dissolved carbon dioxide gas, causing the pH of the groundwater to increase, and that in turn can cause calcium carbonate precipitation.
  • Evaporation increases the concentration of chemicals that are dissolved in the water that remains in the emitter. Because of its low solubility in water, calcium carbonate readily precipitates during evaporation.
  • The degree of solubility of calcium carbonate falls as the water temperature rises. The temperature of water in surface microirrigation systems can increase as the water flows down the laterals.
  • The injection of certain chemicals such as aqua ammonia and bleach or the injection of calcium-containing fertilizers or materials such as gypsum can cause precipitation.

 

 


Rikkitic

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  #2702317 5-May-2021 14:11
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In other words, my opponent wins. Damn.

 

 





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Geektastic
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  #2702321 5-May-2021 14:13
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Ring local tanker service, order water, drink.

Meanwhile, install second rainwater tank for next year.





frankv
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  #2702329 5-May-2021 14:22
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Plumb a separate system for cold water (toilet, garden hoses) and feed that permanently from the spring. That'll save about 20% of your rainwater, which can be plumbed to things that may heat the water (hot water cylinder, kitchen).

 

 


 
 
 

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Rikkitic

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  #2702340 5-May-2021 14:34
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Thanks but already done. The rain water is only for the hot water, everything else on separate system from spring. There are already two storage tanks. We just haven't had much rain this year. As for a local tanker service, no tanker could ever navigate our driveway up to the house. They would have to use a firefighting helicopter.

 

 

 

 





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snnet
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  #2703103 6-May-2021 21:40
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Though I don't know how much harder the spring water is, there are electric elements available for harder water - we found this out where we live (on town supply) has particularly hard water and our new hot water cylinder's element didn't last a year - did some research and found a more tolerant one which hasn't failed the last six years


neb

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  #2703117 7-May-2021 01:11
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Rikkitic: As for a local tanker service, no tanker could ever navigate our driveway up to the house. They would have to use a firefighting helicopter.

 

 

Unless you've got an extraordinarily long driveway they should be able to run a layflat hose to where you need the water, you're probably not the only (potential) customer with a difficult-to-get-to tank...

Rikkitic

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  #2703178 7-May-2021 09:07
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Close to a kilometre up a steep hill on a winding driveway. They would have to follow the driveway because of fences and bush. I hope we never have a fire here.

 

 

 

 

 

 





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