Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


dimsim

848 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

#317371 10-Oct-2024 10:56
Send private message

Does anyone have any experience with these for household hot water?

 

I had a read through this and the general gist I got was to stay away from gas which I thought may be the best solution.

 

I'm looking to replace a 300L hotwater cylinder in our bach, its now 20years old and by the sounds its probably very near or past its end of life. We often rent the bach out and sometimes the cylinder gets depleted and there's no hotwater until it reheats (which can be up to 24 hours) I thought continuous gas would be a good solution but it would need to be a bottled solution as there's no mains gas available.

 

A plumber has recommended we install another 300L cylinder in-line with the other ($3500) but that then leaves me with the possibility of having to replace the other cylinder shortly as well, so the costs are getting up there. As the bach is only infrequently occupied, the cylinder sits idle for a lot of the time, so I'm guessing there's going to be some energy wastage there also.

 

The convenience of a continuous electric system just sounds like a winner. Isn't using power when we're not there, hot water won't ever run out, installation in place of current cylinder should be relatively simple, remove the possibility of a leaking or blown older cylinder.

 

The current cylinder is in a large cupboard under the stairs, so I'm hoping that an electric continuous system can be installed there in place of the hotwater cylinder but I just don't know enough about them.

 

  • Do they need to be vented?
  • Is a single phase unit sufficient for a large household?
  • If 3 phase required, is there much involved in getting that installed

Any/all views/recommendations would be appreicated.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
Spyware
3763 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #3295382 10-Oct-2024 11:04
Send private message

300 litre tank @ 3 kW should heat from room temp in 6 hours. Please explain why depletion occurs.





Spark Max Fibre using Mikrotik CCR1009-8G-1S-1S+, CRS125-24G-1S, Unifi UAP, U6-Pro, UAP-AC-M-Pro, Apple TV 4K (2022), Apple TV 4K (2017), iPad Air 1st gen, iPad Air 4th gen, iPhone 13, SkyNZ3151 (the white box). If it doesn't move then it's data cabled.




itxtme
2102 posts

Uber Geek


  #3295393 10-Oct-2024 11:50
Send private message

Few more considerations.  Instant electric hot water is not really a thing in New Zealand.

 

Are you sure its a 300L tank?  That is a large tank, the largest actually. It seems crazy to me you run out of water if the tank is that big, especially if its a low pressure system.

 

Are you on mains water?  Also is the electric cylinder mains pressure?

 

You can get 300L tanks with dual elements so heat up time would be fast.  But like Spyware said it should not take 24 hours with a single element.

 

If considering gas you need to work out the cost of tanks for hireage per year.  Also what is the cost to get the tanks delivered.  If you are using a lot of water the gas will be used up faster.  Who will be responsible for checking the tanks if you are not there to ensure new tank is delivered etc. etc.  Other considerations are suitability for install, there are rules for bottles and unit placement and also how big a unit you need for the number of bathrooms


dimsim

848 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #3295444 10-Oct-2024 12:12
Send private message

Spyware:

 

300 litre tank @ 3 kW should heat from room temp in 6 hours. Please explain why depletion occurs.

 

 

 

 

all the hotwater used by guests having long showers.




Spyware
3763 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #3295503 10-Oct-2024 12:36
Send private message

Rheem have 2 x 3kW simultaneous 300l, page 13, model 31230033 or even 2 x 5 kW 31230055. Note: These are indoor models.





Spark Max Fibre using Mikrotik CCR1009-8G-1S-1S+, CRS125-24G-1S, Unifi UAP, U6-Pro, UAP-AC-M-Pro, Apple TV 4K (2022), Apple TV 4K (2017), iPad Air 1st gen, iPad Air 4th gen, iPhone 13, SkyNZ3151 (the white box). If it doesn't move then it's data cabled.


dimsim

848 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #3295504 10-Oct-2024 12:38
Send private message

itxtme:

 

Few more considerations.  Instant electric hot water is not really a thing in New Zealand.

 

Are you sure its a 300L tank?  That is a large tank, the largest actually. It seems crazy to me you run out of water if the tank is that big, especially if its a low pressure system.

 

Are you on mains water?  Also is the electric cylinder mains pressure?

 

You can get 300L tanks with dual elements so heat up time would be fast.  But like Spyware said it should not take 24 hours with a single element.

 

If considering gas you need to work out the cost of tanks for hireage per year.  Also what is the cost to get the tanks delivered.  If you are using a lot of water the gas will be used up faster.  Who will be responsible for checking the tanks if you are not there to ensure new tank is delivered etc. etc.  Other considerations are suitability for install, there are rules for bottles and unit placement and also how big a unit you need for the number of bathrooms

 

 

 

 

yes mains pressure. i was told that it take so long to heat up because the guests continually try to use the hotwater before it has fully heated and this introduced more cold water to the system.


pih

pih
649 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #3295506 10-Oct-2024 12:44
Send private message

Continuous electric systems are available here:

 

 

https://www.chesters.co.nz/product/21990/stiebel-eltron-electric-instantaneous-water-heater-single-phase

 

https://www.chesters.co.nz/product/7480/triton-fast-fit-electric-shower

 

 

However even the largest system will only really do for a single shower at a time, and that only at a modest flow rate. If you're in a colder part of the country, it may struggle to get the water warm enough to even have a comfortable shower at all, let alone a nice high-flow one, or two people using hot water at the same time.

 

 

If a single large cylinder doesn't provide enough hot water then I think you have two options already: go gas (and monitor gas bottle levels and replacement) or add a second cylinder.

 

 

One final option might be to raise the thermostat in the cylinder as high as it goes (and add a tempering valve if one doesn't already exist): hotter water means you use less of it. But obviously there is an added ongoing cost to that, because ... Second Law of Thermodynamics. Adding insulation and maybe some automation to only heat during off peak times when the place is unoccupied could alleviate that.

shk292
2857 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #3295511 10-Oct-2024 12:55
Send private message

How about adding a lower flow rate shower head to reduce demand on the system?

 
 
 

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).
  #3295515 10-Oct-2024 12:59
Send private message

I second that emptying a 300L cylinder is unusual, and it definitely shouldn't be taking 24h to reheat. Check it's not on a time switch or ripple controller, and that it's got a 3kW element, not a 1.5 or 2 (though that would be unusual in a 300L cylinder).

 

Turning the thermostat up a bit will allow you to store more energy at the cost of slightly higher losses. Check lagging on all hot pipes near the cylinder.

 

Replacing the element with a 4.8/5kW version is probably possible (they probably use the same mounting?) but you'll need to replace the circuit and perhaps the thermostat. This should bring a complete recovery down from ~6h to ~4h, and water should be 'hot' again in about half that.

 

 

 

Fitting low-flow showerheads will reduce consumption; do a bucket test. A 7L/min showerhead (current standard) will probably consume about 5L/min from your tank (because the 65C water is mixed down with cold to about 40C), which should last about 60 minutes, plus another ~8 minutes for the water heated while the shower is running.

 

 

 

Most houses have a 63A/15kW supply available for everything, three phase is probably going to be 40A/30kW or 63A/45kW. The Rheem brochure above conveniently lists both gas and electric continuous flow heaters; the gas models go from 16L/min 35kW to 27L/min 57kW. The electric models are 7L/min 18kW and 12L/min 27kW.

 

 

 

 


Bung
6488 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  #3295518 10-Oct-2024 13:09
Send private message

Is yours one of those baches that get rented to a couple or a small family and ends up surrounded by cars and tents? The neighbours would tell you after they finish moaning about the noise 😁


dimsim

848 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #3295519 10-Oct-2024 13:11
Send private message

shk292: How about adding a lower flow rate shower head to reduce demand on the system?

 

 

 

we live rurally and have a high flow pump and tank setup, so our water pressure here is amazing - this is why wife has deemed it necessary to remove all flow restrictors at the bach.


dimsim

848 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #3295521 10-Oct-2024 13:12
Send private message

Bung:

 

Is yours one of those baches that get rented to a couple or a small family and ends up surrounded by cars and tents? The neighbours would tell you after they finish moaning about the noise 😁

 

 

 

 

haha, thankfully not. we have a property manager that keeps an eye on the place also.


Spyware
3763 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #3295540 10-Oct-2024 13:53
Send private message

Put thermostat on 70C and connect to 24 hour rated power - my guess is it's either on a timer or rippled night rate meter.





Spark Max Fibre using Mikrotik CCR1009-8G-1S-1S+, CRS125-24G-1S, Unifi UAP, U6-Pro, UAP-AC-M-Pro, Apple TV 4K (2022), Apple TV 4K (2017), iPad Air 1st gen, iPad Air 4th gen, iPhone 13, SkyNZ3151 (the white box). If it doesn't move then it's data cabled.


  #3295565 10-Oct-2024 14:52
Send private message

dimsim:

 

shk292: How about adding a lower flow rate shower head to reduce demand on the system?

 

 

 

we live rurally and have a high flow pump and tank setup, so our water pressure here is amazing - this is why wife has deemed it necessary to remove all flow restrictors at the bach.

 

 

You're probably going to need to find some way to deal with that, perhaps only when guests are staying.

 

Removing/reinserting flow restrictors or hiding a valve to bypass a restrictor could be an option.

 

Modern low-flow shower heads are much better than an old showerhead and a flow restrictor: less water but being sprayed at full speed, rather than a wide-open dribble. 

 

 

 

If you have a 20+L/min shower head then even continuous flow gas will struggle to keep up, especially if you also use e.g. a kitchen sink.


wellygary
8328 posts

Uber Geek


  #3295568 10-Oct-2024 14:53
Send private message

I'm looking to replace a 300L hotwater cylinder in our bach,

 

Where is it (beach-bush-mountain town??, and what is the general number of guests and use case...

 

 

 

As others have mentioned instant Electric hot water tend to be low flow.... if your use to powerful showers it will annoy the F out of you...

 

 

 

Easiest option is probably gas, with dual 9 kg LP bottles with switchable feed.... esp if multiple people are likely to want the shower in succession

 

 

 

The thread you linked to was for a regular house, so they will have a different use profile from a Bach....


dimsim

848 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #3295572 10-Oct-2024 15:05
Send private message

Spyware:

 

Put thermostat on 70C and connect to 24 hour rated power - my guess is it's either on a timer or rippled night rate meter.

 

 

Thanks for everyone's contributions, a lot to consider but seems like the 300L cylinder if rated and powered correctly should be sufficient.

 

I did look at the Rheem cylinders mentioned above and the 2x3kw model has a recovery rate of 103 litres per hr and then 2x5kw model 171 litres per hr. The 2/3kw versions have recovery rates of 34/51 litres per hr. I assume that means that at 103 litres per hr, the 300L cylinder should fully recovery in 3 hours?

 

I suspect ours problem is probably a combination of things

 

     

  1. temperature set too low
  2. element possibly 2/3kw
  3. ripple controlled
  4. old, indeed of replacement.

 

Questions

 

     

  1. As I'm not there - can I simply ring the power provider and will they be able to tell me if our hotwater is ripple controlled?
  2. Types of cylinders, stainless vs vitreous enamel - which is best in terms of longevity and heat retention? I was told a cylinder typically last 8-12 years, but this Rheem unit is now 20years old (same as the house) Would the fact that it is not in constant use be helping its lifespan?
  3. Does anyone have any recommendations for economical shower heads that don't sacrifice the feeling of pressure?

 1 | 2 | 3 | 4
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic





News and reviews »

Air New Zealand Starts AI adoption with OpenAI
Posted 24-Jul-2025 16:00


eero Pro 7 Review
Posted 23-Jul-2025 12:07


BeeStation Plus Review
Posted 21-Jul-2025 14:21


eero Unveils New Wi-Fi 7 Products in New Zealand
Posted 21-Jul-2025 00:01


WiZ Introduces HDMI Sync Box and other Light Devices
Posted 20-Jul-2025 17:32


RedShield Enhances DDoS and Bot Attack Protection
Posted 20-Jul-2025 17:26


Seagate Ships 30TB Drives
Posted 17-Jul-2025 11:24


Oclean AirPump A10 Water Flosser Review
Posted 13-Jul-2025 11:05


Samsung Galaxy Z Fold7: Raising the Bar for Smartphones
Posted 10-Jul-2025 02:01


Samsung Galaxy Z Flip7 Brings New Edge-To-Edge FlexWindow
Posted 10-Jul-2025 02:01


Epson Launches New AM-C550Z WorkForce Enterprise printer
Posted 9-Jul-2025 18:22


Samsung Releases Smart Monitor M9
Posted 9-Jul-2025 17:46


Nearly Half of Older Kiwis Still Write their Passwords on Paper
Posted 9-Jul-2025 08:42


D-Link 4G+ Cat6 Wi-Fi 6 DWR-933M Mobile Hotspot Review
Posted 1-Jul-2025 11:34


Oppo A5 Series Launches With New Levels of Durability
Posted 30-Jun-2025 10:15









Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.