Watching Spark Sport (including launch and pricing)

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33 posts

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#2299782 15-Aug-2019 13:41

tdgeek:

As far as I am aware SS are 1080p not 1080i/ Sky is 1080i and that's fine, as they encode very well. Why does Sky not have this issue?

The key difference is interlaced versus progressive. Interlaced makes for smoother movement.

tdgeek

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#2299792 15-Aug-2019 13:51

jasonsweetbix:

The key difference is interlaced versus progressive. Interlaced makes for smoother movement.

Does it??? @sbiddle

Progressive is a full frame, interlaced is a half frame. If you played two frames, P gives you two full frames, I gives you two half frames, how can that be smoother?

Why dont we use 720, 1080, 4k 8k as interlaced as its better?

niallm90

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#2299811 15-Aug-2019 14:31

tdgeek:

Does it??? @sbiddle

Progressive is a full frame, interlaced is a half frame. If you played two frames, P gives you two full frames, I gives you two half frames, how can that be smoother?

Why dont we use 720, 1080, 4k 8k as interlaced as its better?

Yes. With the same bandwidth interlacing allows the appearance of more more movement. See paragraph two of Wikipedia (Interlaced video - Benefits of interlacing)

Edit: Fixed link

tdgeek

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#2299821 15-Aug-2019 14:45

niallm90:

tdgeek:

Does it??? @sbiddle

Progressive is a full frame, interlaced is a half frame. If you played two frames, P gives you two full frames, I gives you two half frames, how can that be smoother?

Why dont we use 720, 1080, 4k 8k as interlaced as its better?

Yes. With the same bandwidth interlacing allows the appearance of more more movement. See paragraph two of Wikipedia (Interlaced video - Benefits of interlacing)

Edit: Fixed link

Tks. makes sense.

Deano004

22 posts

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#2299825 15-Aug-2019 14:55

Don't hold your breath for a return to 60fps anytime soon.

Sent some feedback to spark sport via thier website, pretty much explaining everything I've said here. Here is the reply :

thank you so much for taking the time to provide us your feedback. I can totally understand the disappoint with regards to the framerate changing from 60FPS to 30FPS. Unfortunately due to the desire to get as many devices as possible to work for the upcoming Rugby World Cup, we've had to make this change.

In many ways your feedback would be the same feedback I have, I happen to have the same tv, fibre in the house and just wished the Spark Sport was streaming at 1080p at 60FPS, but for now its not going to be like that. I hope going forward we do make the change to Full HD or even 4K,I hope you stay with us while we grow the service and make improvements to it.

jasonsweetbix

33 posts

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#2299826 15-Aug-2019 14:55

tdgeek:

jasonsweetbix:

The key difference is interlaced versus progressive. Interlaced makes for smoother movement.

Does it??? @sbiddle

Progressive is a full frame, interlaced is a half frame. If you played two frames, P gives you two full frames, I gives you two half frames, how can that be smoother?

Why dont we use 720, 1080, 4k 8k as interlaced as its better?

Essentially interlacing loads half frames at a time on alternating lines of the resolution. so it creates the illusion of double the frame rate at the expense (arguably) of the resolution. For example 1080i is really showing 540 lines from one half frame and 540 lines from the next half frame (field). Where as 1080p is showing a full 1080 lines of resolution for one frame. The ultimate would be 60fps at 1080p. Unfortunately almost nothing comes like this from source. The highest you tend to get is 25/30fps 1080i.

jasonsweetbix

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#2299828 15-Aug-2019 14:59

Deano004: Don't hold your breath for a return to 60fps anytime soon.

Sent some feedback to spark sport via thier website, pretty much explaining everything I've said here. Here is the reply :

thank you so much for taking the time to provide us your feedback. I can totally understand the disappoint with regards to the framerate changing from 60FPS to 30FPS. Unfortunately due to the desire to get as many devices as possible to work for the upcoming Rugby World Cup, we've had to make this change.

In many ways your feedback would be the same feedback I have, I happen to have the same tv, fibre in the house and just wished the Spark Sport was streaming at 1080p at 60FPS, but for now its not going to be like that. I hope going forward we do make the change to Full HD or even 4K,I hope you stay with us while we grow the service and make improvements to it.

This is true, many devices (especially low end) tend to have trouble rendering 60fps. Even a lot of smart TVs. It is a toss up generally between maximum devices or maximum quality. For example you could arguably stream 4k 60p content under HEVC, but you would probably only be able to play it reliably on an apple TV 4 and nothing else.

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tdgeek

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#2299830 15-Aug-2019 15:04

jasonsweetbix:

tdgeek:

jasonsweetbix:

The key difference is interlaced versus progressive. Interlaced makes for smoother movement.

Does it??? @sbiddle

Progressive is a full frame, interlaced is a half frame. If you played two frames, P gives you two full frames, I gives you two half frames, how can that be smoother?

Why dont we use 720, 1080, 4k 8k as interlaced as its better?

Essentially interlacing loads half frames at a time on alternating lines of the resolution. so it creates the illusion of double the frame rate at the expense (arguably) of the resolution. For example 1080i is really showing 540 lines from one half frame and 540 lines from the next half frame (field). Where as 1080p is showing a full 1080 lines of resolution for one frame. The ultimate would be 60fps at 1080p. Unfortunately almost nothing comes like this from source. The highest you tend to get is 25/30fps 1080i.

Yeah I know all that, and I can see how twice as many half frames can ease transition. SS had 60fps. What we had then, with F1 as my example, was a visual image better then Sky, you can see its better. Motion was identical. When you looked at the panning background, it wasnt smooth but it was good, and consistent. Now, its a LOT worse. It should be noticeably worse but not a LOT worse. That tells me encoding is part of this. If it doesnt go back to what it was (which was excellent) I will be surprised and disappointed, and look at other options. Chris Kealls article implies it will go back to 60fps

jasonsweetbix

33 posts

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#2299838 15-Aug-2019 15:15

tdgeek:

jasonsweetbix:

tdgeek:

jasonsweetbix:

The key difference is interlaced versus progressive. Interlaced makes for smoother movement.

Does it??? @sbiddle

Progressive is a full frame, interlaced is a half frame. If you played two frames, P gives you two full frames, I gives you two half frames, how can that be smoother?

Why dont we use 720, 1080, 4k 8k as interlaced as its better?

Essentially interlacing loads half frames at a time on alternating lines of the resolution. so it creates the illusion of double the frame rate at the expense (arguably) of the resolution. For example 1080i is really showing 540 lines from one half frame and 540 lines from the next half frame (field). Where as 1080p is showing a full 1080 lines of resolution for one frame. The ultimate would be 60fps at 1080p. Unfortunately almost nothing comes like this from source. The highest you tend to get is 25/30fps 1080i.

Yeah I know all that, and I can see how twice as many half frames can ease transition. SS had 60fps. What we had then, with F1 as my example, was a visual image better then Sky, you can see its better. Motion was identical. When you looked at the panning background, it wasnt smooth but it was good, and consistent. Now, its a LOT worse. It should be noticeably worse but not a LOT worse. That tells me encoding is part of this. If it doesnt go back to what it was (which was excellent) I will be surprised and disappointed, and look at other options. Chris Kealls article implies it will go back to 60fps

Worth remembering as well that F1 does not come in 50/60p so any 60p frame rate must have been constructed from interlaced fields. I would point the finger towards the de-interlacing filter as opposed to frame rate or encoding for the quality. If it is a de-interlacing issue it should be possible to get the quality much better while still sticking to 30fps.

niallm90

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#2299843 15-Aug-2019 15:28

jasonsweetbix:

Worth remembering as well that F1 does not come in 50/60p so the previous SS frame rate must have been constructed from interlaced fields. I would point the finger towards the de-interlacing filter as opposed to frame rate or encoding for the quality. If it is a de-interlacing issue it should be possible to get the quality much better while still sticking to 30fps.

What does it come in? FOM upload you YouTube at 1080p50...

tdgeek

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#2299845 15-Aug-2019 15:30

jasonsweetbix:

Worth remembering as well that F1 does not come in 50/60p so the previous SS frame rate must have been constructed from interlaced fields. I would point the finger towards the de-interlacing filter as opposed to frame rate or encoding for the quality. If it is a de-interlacing issue it should be possible to get the quality much better while still sticking to 30fps.

Your saying that F1 was 1080i/30? Thereby, same as Sky which is 1080i/25 NZNOG shows the capability was up to 6ofps, Spark ha ve saod that its been cut for 60 to 30, so you are saying we have never had progressive at all? Does Netflix have progressive?

jasonsweetbix

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#2299857 15-Aug-2019 15:43

niallm90:

What does it come in? FOM upload you YouTube at 1080p50...

I believe from memory 25/30i, very little live content tends to come in true 50/60p. Youtube like all online video platforms delivers video under video standards (h.264, h.265) which don't like interlacing so would likely construct progressive frames from interlaced fields.

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#2299860 15-Aug-2019 15:45

Folks, please stop with the power quoting. I have removed some but will not waste time editing in the future.

jasonsweetbix

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#2299861 15-Aug-2019 15:48

tdgeek:

Your saying that F1 was 1080i/30? Thereby, same as Sky which is 1080i/25 NZNOG shows the capability was up to 6ofps, Spark ha ve saod that its been cut for 60 to 30, so you are saying we have never had progressive at all? Does Netflix have progressive?

Sorry not sure what you're asking, online video only really supports progressive so most anything you watch online is progressive video. Generally broadcast content producers use interlaced and so content needs to be converted for delivery to devices for playback over the internet. What I was saying is that if you have a 50/60i source, this is very different from a 50/60p source and would require some converting to be a progressive feed.

niallm90

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#2299871 15-Aug-2019 16:29

freitasm:

Folks, please stop with the power quoting. I have removed some but will not waste time editing in the future.

Sorry, I was on mobile and its a pain in the arse to fix.

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