Aspirin - prophylaxis (heart etc)

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Fred99

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#240630 17-Sep-2018 20:39

Another one bites the dust. Theory sounded good, but whoops - the science may not support "the obvious".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45511362

Elderly people in good health should not take an aspirin a day, according to a major study in the US and Australia.

There are proven benefits of the drug for people after a heart attack or stroke.

But the trial found no benefit for healthy people over the age of 70, and the pills increased the risk of potentially fatal internal bleeding.

Experts described the results as very important and cautioned against self-medicating with aspirin.

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192 posts

Master Geek

#2092210 17-Sep-2018 22:04

"may not support" is not sufficient for me to change.
My father died at 41 - heart attack.
My brother died at 44 - heart attack.
I have made it to 68 taking a daily dose of 150mg of acetylsalicylic acid for the last 35 years and will continue.
Death by Aspirin withdrawal is not an option for me. ;-)

Batman

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#2092224 17-Sep-2018 23:15

Scientists are weird.

They seem to have a swarm behaviour based on a simple mentality of something is either fully good, or fully bad. That something very complicated is either fact, or fiction.

Yesterday: Aspirin is good.

Tomorrow: Aspirin is bad.

The truth is, it depends.

The simple answer: If you have a very low risk of heart attack, then aspirin is possibly bad IF you find yourself in a situation where you have internal bleeding. If you have a high risk of heart attack, then aspirin can't be too bad, thus possibly good, because your chances of a heart attack would be far higher than your chances of falling on your head because you don't walk much anyway.

The hard answer: It's complicated. It depends on the interaction between whether the detrimental effects of aspirin are insurmountable in the circumstances you find yourself in, compared to whether the your genetics are expressed in a way that the interaction with aspirin's many effects will have a multilayer overall positive effect of preventing coronary artery thrombosis that would have resulted in a fatal heart attack.

If you take 100,000 people and give them aspirin, that's a very bad way of understanding an individual, because you are studying population effects. Why do doctors do that? Well to tell the government whether money is well spent for greater good or not. Doesn't help the individual.

Fred99

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#2092299 18-Sep-2018 09:09

What I thought was obvious from the summary seems to have been missed:

The results of that study don't suggest that there's not a reduction in heart attacks for people taking daily aspirin - the results do suggest that for healthy people over 70 without specific risk factors, the risks from taking daily aspirin outweigh the potential benefits.

Medicines have risks - don't take meds regularly without a Drs opinion and don't stop taking regular meds without Drs opinion.

If you think you have specific risk factors - don't just self-medicate with aspirin. Find out.

If you don't have any specific risk factors - a NZ doctor may not recommend daily aspirin anyway. In NZ you can buy heart-shaped mini-aspirin off the shelf. If they're selling that - then it's probably true that people are self-medicating, as if a Dr thought you needed it - you'd get it for (almost) free.

MikeB4

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#2092327 18-Sep-2018 09:30

Going forward in time a month and in BREAKING NEWS..... Researches find link between long life, lower risk of Heart disease and taking Aspirin daily coupled with Jelly Beans at night. More to follow.........

trig42

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#2092331 18-Sep-2018 09:33

Don't forget to eat eggs, or stop eating eggs, or butter, or margarine - I can't remember which...

MikeB4

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#2092337 18-Sep-2018 09:38

trig42:

Don't forget to eat eggs, or stop eating eggs, or butter, or margarine - I can't remember which...

Dont eat all three this week but next week all is good.

sen8or

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#2092353 18-Sep-2018 10:02

Then theres the whole "a glass of red wine is good for you" followed a short time later by "daily consumption of alcohol can lead to xxxxxx disease"

Sicence - the art of proving something right, until you want to prove it wrong

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idle

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#2092360 18-Sep-2018 10:08

Have enjoyed the levity, BUT this has been a large trial of 19,000 people, all of whom were OVER 70, and HEALTHY. The data clearly shows THAT IN THIS GROUP, taking daily aspirin has no advantages, and may have disadvantages, such as gastro-intestinal bleeding. If you are NOT HEALTHY, or NOT YET 70, then this research does not apply to you! This result does not contradict previous studies, which found aspirin was helpful in more eclectic cohorts.

Batman

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#2092370 18-Sep-2018 10:18

trig42:

Don't forget to eat eggs, or stop eating eggs, or butter, or margarine - I can't remember which...

And coconut milk and coffee and wine - wait ...

Batman

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#2092371 18-Sep-2018 10:19

sen8or:

Then theres the whole "a glass of red wine is good for you" followed a short time later by "daily consumption of alcohol can lead to xxxxxx disease"

Sicence - the art of proving something right, until you want to prove it wrong

These articles are usually placed right next to each other. Maybe editors are trying to make a point?

Just like "Auckland house prices going up" right next to "Auckland house prices dropped". Same paper, same day.

Batman

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#2092373 18-Sep-2018 10:20

MikeB4:

trig42:

Don't forget to eat eggs, or stop eating eggs, or butter, or margarine - I can't remember which...

Dont eat all three this week but next week all is good.

If you don't eat anything you won't die ...

MikeAqua

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#2092381 18-Sep-2018 10:29

Batman:

Scientists are weird.

They seem to have a swarm behaviour based on a simple mentality of something is either fully good, or fully bad. That something very complicated is either fact, or fiction.

Yesterday: Aspirin is good.

Tomorrow: Aspirin is bad.

You confuse science with media reporting of science. Media are weird.

If you read the primary literature you will find different scientists reporting different findings based on the data they analysed and the methods they used.

Overtime consensus emerges, but that consensus is always vulnerable to new evidence.

My advice - ignore popular articles about science and read the primary source.

Mike

Fred99

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#2092388 18-Sep-2018 10:44

MikeAqua:

You confuse science with media reporting of science. Media are weird.

That BBC article was pretty reasonable - and there's a link to the journal (free access).

The brief conclusion:

Aspirin use in healthy elderly persons did not prolong disability-free survival over a period of 5 years but led to a higher rate of major hemorrhage than placebo.

MikeB4

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#2092392 18-Sep-2018 10:47

I have some serious medical issues, if I had taken onboard the stuff that hits the press I would have changed my treatment regime a thousand times in the last 5 years. I take all my advice from my specialists and GP.

robjg63

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#2092402 18-Sep-2018 10:53

MikeAqua:
Batman:

Scientists are weird.

They seem to have a swarm behaviour based on a simple mentality of something is either fully good, or fully bad. That something very complicated is either fact, or fiction.

Yesterday: Aspirin is good.

Tomorrow: Aspirin is bad.

You confuse science with media reporting of science. Media are weird.

If you read the primary literature you will find different scientists reporting different findings based on the data they analysed and the methods they used.

Overtime consensus emerges, but that consensus is always vulnerable to new evidence.

My advice - ignore popular articles about science and read the primary source.

This.
But more like "media are lazy" or "media no longer has the resources".
Once upon a time there used to be science reporters who had a background in science.
A proper research project will have a lot of material in its findings.
The media grabs a one sentence over simplified summation and that's what gets reported.

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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