RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3127788 14-Sep-2023 14:24

johno1234:

alasta:

I have just been through this exercise. Electric isn't financially viable if you can't charge at home, and I couldn't find any hybrids that I liked and were readily available. I have always owned Mazdas so I took a CX-30 for a test drive and managed to get under 6.5l/100km under sedate driving according to the (admittedly not perfectly accurate) trip computer so I ended up ordering one of those.

Yep at current prices BEV are uneconomic if you don't drive a lot and don't charge at home. What kind of drive got you 6.5L/100Km - was it a bit stop-start as it doesn't sound great for a small car? My heavy diesel SUV can get close to that (7.0L/100Km) on a commute to work in ideal conditions (Remuera to East Tamaki using SH1, no congestion) and will get under 7 on a long highway trip. However if there is traffic congestion the commute could be 9.

That particular drive was Lower Hutt CBD to Eastbourne in reasonably heavy traffic, but my driving style is very frugal. My CX-5 with the same powertrain would do around 8l/100km in those conditions.

I would imagine I could get 6l/100km from the CX-30 in ideal conditions - i.e. cruising at 70km/h on flat terrain with the cylinder deactivation engaged.

mattwnz

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#3127796 14-Sep-2023 14:45

We looked at the CX30 recently but it wasn't really that fuel efficient compared to hybrids such as Toyota/Lexus which gets about 5L or under. Didn't really like the Toyotas and the popular ones had a big waiting list, but Lexus do some nice small SUV Hybrids now and were on sale and available.. My Mazda 3 says it does 6.5L which isn't too bad and is why I purchased it over the cx5 years ago, but wouldn't buy it today. The current mazdas aren't that fuel efficient apart form their new cx60 or mx30. That is one of the good things about the CCD, in that it does incentivize people to buy a more fuel efficient vehicle, as most petrol only SUVs get taxed.

mattwnz

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#3127800 14-Sep-2023 15:19

cddt:

Dingbatt:

I have difficulty with this logic. People on a low income that will struggle with RUCs, will struggle to put petrol in their tanks at the moment.

If they are struggling to put petrol in to their tanks at the moment, they will just not pay the RUC.

But petrol prices should drop a lot of compensate for this. However I can see them collecting it during petrol fillups or not allowing a car to be filled up without first scanning in the cars RUC details. Although they probably doesn't stop people from filling up fuel containers instead.

ezbee

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#3127931 14-Sep-2023 20:08

The pay at pump petrol tax is very efficent tax collection method and difficult to cheat.

It also has a side benefit that if you use more petrol you pay more absolue tax.

So its a GREEN tax, pollute more pay more. :-)

Trade that old car in for a Hybrid and you pay less and pollute less so great incentive.

Its very pay as you go, as much as you go, so very workable for average person.

Efficiency of tax collection is also supported by not having 10-100x more RUC inspecting and stops.
Complications of RUC scanning infrastructure if you go that way with locked pumps.
Without enforcement you will have a large amount of avoidance and income loss.

Too many people will have problems managing a bulk charge.

jarledb

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#3127937 14-Sep-2023 20:41

ezbee:
So its a GREEN tax, pollute more pay more. :-)

Trade that old car in for a Hybrid and you pay less and pollute less so great incentive.

Let’s suppose it is a green tax (it’s not). Then I have a feeling that green tax will actually be less for someone with a hybrid vs an EV. That would be strange, don’t you think?

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Handle9

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#3127940 14-Sep-2023 20:45

johno1234:

Handle9:

If it's not actually producing more damage why does the increase in weight matter?

Sorry, just responding to the "You seem to still be pushing the EVs are heavier so more road damaging line. This is a totally facetious claim so interested in your providing some reputable basis for that claim." posting.

Engineers usually use the 4th power rule (W1/W2)^4 when estimating the damaged caused by vehicles based on axle weight. https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads

An MG ZS ICE is 1255kg add the BEV LR model 1610Kg so 2.5 times the road damage.

If the RUC is to reflect what it should pay for then the formula would need to include weighted factors for all the costs the mileage incurs, including road maintenance (axle weight), ACC, emissions and so on. None if this is hard work for a computer and a programmer with year 13 algebra competence.

2.5 time almost nothing is still almost nothing. The absolute difference is trival and really not worth worrying about.

KrazyKid

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#3127954 14-Sep-2023 22:05

Still no idea on how to avoid a poverty trap, but some quick calculation on what the RUC should be can be made using the current tax in petrol.

Currently petrol taxes and levies are at $0.77404 + GST per litre. (Excluding Auckland)

If a car uses say 8L per 100km (yes I know there are cars better than that) then for 1000km the petrol tax is $71.21

Current RUC is set at $76.00 + admin fees.

You could argue that light vehicles with RUCS are slightly subsidising petrol cars.

I think the arguments about weight are mostly irrelevant for light vehicles.

I also still think this will get kicked down the road because it is too hard. Then at some point in the next 20 years your car registration will include a RUC like component based on a mileage reading. Most people will pay and there will be some that don't. But being tied to the registration they well be easy to track, fine and penalize. WOF already included odo readings so they have that info now.

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Handle9

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#3127958 14-Sep-2023 22:12

The ultimate solution will be some sort of phone home capabilities which tie your car usage to the government systems. At some point if you haven't paid your car will refuse to let you drive it.

Obviously that'll take some time to implement.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3127965 14-Sep-2023 22:40

Handle9:

The ultimate solution will be some sort of phone home capabilities which tie your car usage to the government systems. At some point if you haven't paid your car will refuse to let you drive it.

Obviously that'll take some time to implement.

A disabling function triggered by non-payment of RUCs will never get passed on public safety grounds. Occupants stranded whereever it occurs... nope!

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Handle9

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#3127966 14-Sep-2023 22:44

HarmLessSolutions:
Handle9:

The ultimate solution will be some sort of phone home capabilities which tie your car usage to the government systems. At some point if you haven't paid your car will refuse to let you drive it.

Obviously that'll take some time to implement.

A disabling function triggered by non-payment of RUCs will never get passed on public safety grounds. Occupants stranded whereever it occurs... nope!

I suspect that’s where it will end up, just as it does for power, water and other things.

There’ll be a grace period for you have a week or month after expiry etc but that’s what’ll end up happening. It’ll take a long time (10+ years) before we get there.

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#3127967 14-Sep-2023 22:44

mattwnz:

But petrol prices should drop a lot of compensate for this. However I can see them collecting it during petrol fillups or not allowing a car to be filled up without first scanning in the cars RUC details. Although they probably doesn't stop people from filling up fuel containers instead.

To most in this forum this isn't an issue but I doubt if you're living paycheck to paycheck you can't afford to outlay money up front for RUCs even with lower cost of petrol at the pump as a result of this policy.

Right now, say they got $20 and just fill up ($3/L) and do by, with this scheme it might cost them say about $14.5 ($2.2/L) for the same amount of fuel, but $5.5 saved does nothing much for them. Because up front they have to find $76 to buy 1000km of RUCs which they don't have. In terms of fill up costs, they would've paid this amount roughly over 14 fill ups. If they don't fill up / use car, they don't pay and can use that for something else they need.

So how does this scheme benefit anyone who is really struggling in a supposed cost of living crisis - or is it now just a politically correct term to to hide the real issue of maybe there's an ever widening inequality crisis.

Also how long before scummy fuel retailers take a chunk of the 80c saving for themselves knowing people were happy to pay that price before and if they have to now start reading RUC cards what not gives easy excuses to justify increases. Same was said about supermarkets if GST is removed. So even if RUCs are charged in arrears it might not work out well for ones struggling in the first place assuming they can save the reduced fuel cost towards RUCs.

More and more when these 'managers needed to run the country' say they are talking to people struggling up and down the country, sounds like they are talking to the wrong people as usual if they are coming up with policies like this. They must be talking to the one who are moaning the loudest - but aren't struggling - maybe in their dreams but not in reality.

mattwnz

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#3127977 15-Sep-2023 00:28

I think whatever system they go with, it is never going to be 100% fair for everyone. You just have to look at NZ council rates on your home, where the level of rates a house pays should really be based on the council resources it uses, which is also based on the number of people in that house. But instead council rates are usually based on the houses capital value, and it has become a form of wealth tax, and people are charged more if they own a more expensive house, almost solely because they have the ability to pay higher rates.
A petrol tax is going to capture less and less people which is whether the problem is. It however isn't really that fair, becuase some people use petrol for things such as ATVs and law mowing o private land and that has no connection with road use, so they shouldn't be taxed on that, which is the reason why diesel vehicles pay RUC, and it isn't levied on the diesel price.. EVs are the future, so possible within the next 30 years most all cars in the road will be EVs. Not unless they have some form of a levy in the electricity price for houses that have EVs, or have some form of meter between the power socket and the car. But that wouldn't capture people charging using solar panels. Public fast chargers would be far easier to collect the tax on.
So RUCs are by default the easiest way to implement. I think part of the issue is just NZs society, people will try to beat the system. Having lived in Japan, if it was Japan, then 99.9% of people would comply.

mattwnz

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#3127978 15-Sep-2023 00:39

Chats:

mattwnz:

But petrol prices should drop a lot of compensate for this. However I can see them collecting it during petrol fillups or not allowing a car to be filled up without first scanning in the cars RUC details. Although they probably doesn't stop people from filling up fuel containers instead.

To most in this forum this isn't an issue but I doubt if you're living paycheck to paycheck you can't afford to outlay money up front for RUCs even with lower cost of petrol at the pump as a result of this policy.

One issue with RUCs is that it is pay in advance for a certain amount of kms. So the government will be getting a lot of money in advance. Where with petrol, people pay as they go. Maybe they need to look at a system where people can just purchase a small amount when they purchase the fuel. I am sure that the goverenmtn consultants are smart enough to come up with a solution. But this is hardly going to be a problem that is unique to NZ. I see in teh UK that in 2025 it looks like EVs will pay a set annual amount to pay for roads, rather than a distance based RUC.

afe66

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#3128015 15-Sep-2023 08:18

Petrol costs will drop initially then the petrol companies will slowly slowly increase their prices to increase their returns.... Just like supermarkets will if gst comes off vegetables.

Introduce ruc on EVs but leave the current system alone.

smac

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#3128019 15-Sep-2023 08:31

FED is still pre-pay, just like RUC....you haven't used the fuel/driven the km's yet. As mentioned above this isn't a poverty trap, the cost will work out roughly what it always has. Anyone who can't afford to buy RUC will be the same people who can't afford petrol now. Potato potato.

The checking/compliance will never be put onto the fuel companies (mentions of locked pumps, checked when you pay etc) because they will still need the infrastructure to check those who never go to the fuel station (EV's) and those who use unmanned stations now (trucks, and those who use their brain and buy at Waitomo or NPD rather than giving their dollars to Z/BP/Caltex/Mobil), and a bunch of legal reasons (using private companies for govt enforcement). SO whatever that system is would be used for all. I don't think the compliance solution will look any/very different from the existing one. Yes fraud will occur, it already does amongst diesel owners, but it's a drop in the bucket.

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