EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2081320 30-Aug-2018 12:25

langi27:

I see petrol has hit $2.30 for 91 and $2.40 for 95 in Christchurch today. These must be record high prices.

I have seen prices in Norway at around $3 NZD per litre for 95 (lowest octane available in Norway). And Norway produces a lot of the stuff... :)

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MikeAqua

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#2081332 30-Aug-2018 12:46

jarledb:

langi27:

I see petrol has hit $2.30 for 91 and $2.40 for 95 in Christchurch today. These must be record high prices.

I have seen prices in Norway at around $3 NZD per litre for 95 (lowest octane available in Norway). And Norway produces a lot of the stuff... :)

That's tax to pay for their high standard of social care.

Mike

frednz

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#2081348 30-Aug-2018 13:11

Linuxluver:

frednz:

kingdragonfly: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/petrol-passes-2-30-per-litre-hitting-new-record-and-prices-forecast-rise

Petrol passes $2.30 per litre hitting new record and prices are forecast to rise

Gosh, $2.30 per litre, I'll have to go out right now and order my brand new $80,000 electric Kona which has a range of 400km, I'm sure it will pay itself off quite soon if petrol prices stay this high!

$73,999.

:-)

The more you drive, the more you save.

Plus.....the most important thing, that some people have a lot of trouble keeping in view: climate change.

Sure, if you drive very long distances every year, then EVs make a lot of sense provided that you can afford to buy a suitable one. So, the point I was making was that, if you buy a nice new Hyundai 64 kWh Elite model which costs $79,999 plus a special charger for home of about $2,000, then this is a big investment, even for a reasonably wealthy person (and most Kona EV buyers seem to want the $80,000 Elite model).

The savings from owning an EV (compared with owning an ICE car) wouldn't be all that great in my case because I only use about 800 litres of fuel per year, and even if this cost $3 per litre, the annual fuel cost for me would be $2,400 compared with say $800 for charging up an EV, so annual savings of $1,600 aren't huge when you have paid $82,000 to get a new EV with a reasonable range.

And savings on servicing an EV would perhaps be only about $400 or so annually for me, so it would take at least 20 years before I could make up the difference of the $40,000 extra I would have to pay to buy the Kona EV compared with a similar petrol Kona vehicle. And that doesn’t allow for interest on the extra capital investment of $40,000 or the fact that I only buy new cars and replace them every 3 years. It also doesn't allow for the much higher depreciation that new car owners face compared with used car buyers.

I decided a long time ago that my next vehicle will be a NZ-New EV with a range of at least 400km, so I don’t mind if, in the meantime, people call me an “Icehole” or a “Trole” just because I’m waiting a little longer than some before I change over to an EV with the range and price that’s appropriate for my circumstances! I definitely won’t buy a second-hand Japanese import EV, but I do admire those who have done this and who are prepared to go through a lot of hassles that you wouldn’t face with a NZ-New EV.

As for the environment, NZ EV ownership is doing quite well and I doubt whether the current infrastructure could support a much higher annual intake of EVs than we have at present.

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#2081410 30-Aug-2018 14:41

frednz:

As for the environment, NZ EV ownership is doing quite well and I doubt whether the current infrastructure could support a much higher annual intake of EVs than we have at present.

What do you mean when you say infrastructure can't handle it?

If talking fast chargers, it's a chicken and egg thing. Either EV owners have to buy cars and create demand with the prospect of going wanting until industry catches up, or industry has to make investment and go without profit until demand catches up. But someone has to make the first move otherwise things will never go anywhere.

I think the industry has been doing a reasonable job at identifying the holes and filling them - well in the N.I. at least, but there is double the population/demand there. I've only experienced charger congestion at the free chargers, where you get the people whose time is apparently worthless, so they're happy to sit in a car park to save $4 at home. Pretty irritating if you are a genuine traveller wanting to get through/out of the area. For the most part, there has always been a vacant pay charger nearby that I could use.

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#2081435 30-Aug-2018 15:23

frednz:

TL;DR I hardly ever drive anywhere so buying a car is a waste of money for everyone.

People who don't drive cars are not the target market for car manufacturers.

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#2081442 30-Aug-2018 15:37

SaltyNZ:

Fast charging infrastructure should be priced to discourage its use.

This is bad thinking.

Fast charging (and everything else) should be priced to cover exactly what it costs, not to encourage or discourage any behaviour. As soon as you start pricing things to make people behave they way you want, the whole thing gets distorted and inefficient. (e.g. the British horsepower tax).

When goods are priced accurately, people can then decide on the utility versus the price and make their own decision.

Of course, "exactly what it costs" needs to cover the entire lifecycle, including manufacture of the vehicle, production of its fuel, disposal of waste and repair of environmental damage.

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#2081445 30-Aug-2018 15:39

Hey all,

So I have a conundrum. My Corolla is coming of age. And I'm in the market for a new car. Daily km's is 20-50km, about 10x a year a 300km+ round trip voyage. Now comes the kicker. The grandparents are moving into a retirement village a few k's down the road. Won't have a car anymore so every so often we need to transport them. We is 2 adults and two kids < 10y. So I actually need a 6 seater for 95% inner city <50km per day driving. As far as I know that doesn't exist (except EV200 - too basic and Tesla X - I am not a 1%er). And on top of all that i sort of don't see the point in buying a petrol car. My current stance is a Leaf 2014+ but also unsure 24 or 30kwh. That still doesn't solve my 6 seat issue though.

Also been thinking of buying a used Odyssey now for long trips and when the grandparents need to come along and then in 1-2y a Leaf for the commuting stuff. But not really keen on 2 cars.

Cheers Oliver

frednz

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#2081456 30-Aug-2018 15:51

tripper1000:

frednz:

As for the environment, NZ EV ownership is doing quite well and I doubt whether the current infrastructure could support a much higher annual intake of EVs than we have at present.

What do you mean when you say infrastructure can't handle it?

If talking fast chargers, it's a chicken and egg thing. Either EV owners have to buy cars and create demand with the prospect of going wanting until industry catches up, or industry has to make investment and go without profit until demand catches up. But someone has to make the first move otherwise things will never go anywhere.

Fair enough, so if the EV population increased from say, 10,000 vehicles to 30,000 vehicles in 1 year, do you think the infrastructure could expand fast enough to meet this extra demand? There must be a limit to the number of additional EVs that can go on the roads in, say, one year, before the existing infrastructure would really struggle to support it, what do you think that number is?

frednz

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#2081459 30-Aug-2018 15:56

SaltyNZ:

frednz:

TL;DR I hardly ever drive anywhere so buying a car is a waste of money for everyone.

People who don't drive cars are not the target market for car manufacturers.

It looks from the above that "frednz" might have said that "buying a car is a waste of money for everyone". But I didn't say that and I agree with your scholarly conclusion that "people who don't drive cars are not the target for car manufacturers".

Dinga96

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#2081465 30-Aug-2018 16:08

olivernz: Hey all, So I have a conundrum. My Corolla is coming of age. And I'm in the market for a new car. Daily km's is 20-50km, about 10x a year a 300km+ round trip voyage. Now comes the kicker. The grandparents are moving into a retirement village a few k's down the road. Won't have a car anymore so every so often we need to transport them. We is 2 adults and two kids < 10y. So I actually need a 6 seater for 95% inner city <50km per day driving. As far as I know that doesn't exist (except EV200 - too basic and Tesla X - I am not a 1%er). And on top of all that i sort of don't see the point in buying a petrol car. My current stance is a Leaf 2014+ but also unsure 24 or 30kwh. That still doesn't solve my 6 seat issue though. Also been thinking of buying a used Odyssey now for long trips and when the grandparents need to come along and then in 1-2y a Leaf for the commuting stuff. But not really keen on 2 cars. Cheers Oliver

You will be hard pressed to find an ev that seats six.Maybe the kia Niro but I doubt very much you will want to shell out for that.Best option buy 2 Nissan leafs.

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#2081609 30-Aug-2018 18:08

Keep the Corolla. But use it only as a secondary car. And use the Leaf as a primary car.

Far cheaper to just own 2 cars, Instead of buying 1 expensive car, just to cover a use case that only rarely happens.

Of course that is assuming that both you and your partner can drive. (guessing that the grandparents can't drive anymore or soon won't be able to).

Buy a battery maintainer for the Corolla. So you won't have to start it just to recharge its battery.

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#2081625 30-Aug-2018 18:55

frankv:

SaltyNZ:

Fast charging infrastructure should be priced to discourage its use.

This is bad thinking.

Fast charging (and everything else) should be priced to cover exactly what it costs, not to encourage or discourage any behaviour. As soon as you start pricing things to make people behave they way you want, the whole thing gets distorted and inefficient. (e.g. the British horsepower tax).

When goods are priced accurately, people can then decide on the utility versus the price and make their own decision.

Of course, "exactly what it costs" needs to cover the entire lifecycle, including manufacture of the vehicle, production of its fuel, disposal of waste and repair of environmental damage.

That's theory....and sometimes is even works that way.

But scarcity is a "distortion" and negative / harmful externalities (like CO2 emissions) that don't have an appropriate cost also result is 'distortions' like Miami, London and New York being submerged.

So pricing to shape behaviours can be excellent policy.

Not sure about fast chargers.......but generally, we shouldn't be purists about market forces. We have seen over and over and over how they can be corrupted by vested interests.....and the "distortion" argument used to perpetuate very harmful activities AND to avoid any costs be attached to those activities.

Cap and trade emissions schemes would have worked if were universa and enforced and people didn't cheat and governments weren't corrupt. But they do......and many are.

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kingdragonfly

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#2081632 30-Aug-2018 19:21

In fairness comparing a top-end electric car in a low travel usage is a worse case scenario.

Of course you could treat ICE vehicles unfairly also, by comparing an EV compared to a Mercedes-Benz, G550.

And before you say "but the Mercedes is an off-road" vehicle, I say "what percent do you think they spend off-road?" Also the Jaguar I-PACE, EV while it doesn't look a jeep, has very impressive off-road abilities

Jaguar I-PACE Gets Driven Off-Road & On Track – Fully Charged

https://insideevs.com/jaguar-i-pace-off-road-track/

As far as the electric infrastructure not being able to withstand more EV's, this has been debunked. The simplest solution is just a timer to start charging EV's off-peak, say 10 pm to 6 am

Dinga96

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#2081641 30-Aug-2018 19:48

Dinga96:

olivernz: Hey all, So I have a conundrum. My Corolla is coming of age. And I'm in the market for a new car. Daily km's is 20-50km, about 10x a year a 300km+ round trip voyage. Now comes the kicker. The grandparents are moving into a retirement village a few k's down the road. Won't have a car anymore so every so often we need to transport them. We is 2 adults and two kids < 10y. So I actually need a 6 seater for 95% inner city <50km per day driving. As far as I know that doesn't exist (except EV200 - too basic and Tesla X - I am not a 1%er). And on top of all that i sort of don't see the point in buying a petrol car. My current stance is a Leaf 2014+ but also unsure 24 or 30kwh. That still doesn't solve my 6 seat issue though. Also been thinking of buying a used Odyssey now for long trips and when the grandparents need to come along and then in 1-2y a Leaf for the commuting stuff. But not really keen on 2 cars. Cheers Oliver

You will be hard pressed to find an ev that seats six.Maybe the kia Niro but I doubt very much you will want to shell out for that.Best option buy 2 Nissan leafs.

There is a van that could be useful .The e-nv200 by Nissan.

EN V 200

driller2000

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#2081643 30-Aug-2018 19:58

frednz:

Sure, if you drive very long distances every year, then EVs make a lot of sense provided that you can afford to buy a suitable one. So, the point I was making was that, if you buy a nice new Hyundai 64 kWh Elite model which costs $79,999 plus a special charger for home of about $2,000, then this is a big investment, even for a reasonably wealthy person (and most Kona EV buyers seem to want the $80,000 Elite model).

I found a spreadsheet online and tried to tweak it for NZ ( i think it is about right?) - and compared a couple of ICE and EV options - and an EV stacked up for me and my use case:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdriyszmupqfh5h/Model%203%20Cost%20Calculator%20-%20NZ.xlsx?dl=0

I drive a V8 so want similar performance - which the 3 can provide.

Admittedly - New EV vs 2nd Hand ICE would not come out the same - but that aint a like for like comparison.

Anyway - was fun to mess around with....

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