Do we have an excess of road policing in New Zealand?

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Hmm, what to write...
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#1409766 20-Oct-2015 12:26

DizzyD:
nzkiwiman:
mdooher:
nzkiwiman:

Of course, its not a nice long drive without some inappropriate driving - managed to do my fastest speed (170km) on a passing lane outside of Ashburton.

OMG and you are still alive? How is this possible? Didn't you come close to losing control? Didn't the other motorists freak out? I don't believe its even possible to reach these speeds on New Zealand roads.

Clearly I am still alive
No hint of stabilisation issues with the car at that speed - unlike my old car which at 145km (or higher) started to twitch.

170km/h is really fast for NZ roads. Bad roads/Really bad other drivers with the "I was here first/don't overtake me" mentality. IMO thats what causes most of our crashes.

230km/h though on Germany's Autobahn is like a Sundays drive. Been there done that, bought the TShirt and mug!

I blame our bad roads for the high amount of deaths in NZ, Per Capita 7.4 people out of every 100k. Germany has just 4.3. In other words you far safer driving in Germany on the Autoban where in most places no speed limit is enforced. Speed does not kill and sometimes I think that here in NZ we are just waisting our time with all the enforcements, and extra road policing. That money could be better spent on better roads, which will do a far better job at reducing our very high road death toll.

Not to mention if you are travelling on the outside lane and someone even needs to slow slightly because you are taking too long to pass you lose your licence... The best road rule in the world.

Matthew

jarledb

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#1409778 20-Oct-2015 13:05

mdooher:

170km/h is really fast for NZ roads. Bad roads/Really bad other drivers with the "I was here first/don't overtake me" mentality. IMO thats what causes most of our crashes.

Not only do some people seem to think that the overtake lanes are racing lanes where they need to make sure nobody passes them (because they might loose some imaginary race), but they slow down after the passing lanes and aggravate the people behind that they just "won the race" over. Its a really dangerous driving style that I see all too much here in NZ.

I blame our bad roads for the high amount of deaths in NZ, Per Capita 7.4 people out of every 100k. Germany has just 4.3.

There is a lot of old cars on the roads here in NZ. And there is a very little roads with proper lane barriers. So that is no surprise. Meeting accidents seem to be a big thing here.

In Norway they have started to put in dividers on stretches of road where there has been many meeting accidents, and that really works. Could be something to consider for NZ. Many places there are enough room to just put it in without major changes to the road.

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MikeB4

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#1409783 20-Oct-2015 13:12

jarledb:
mdooher:

170km/h is really fast for NZ roads. Bad roads/Really bad other drivers with the "I was here first/don't overtake me" mentality. IMO thats what causes most of our crashes.

Not only do some people seem to think that the overtake lanes are racing lanes where they need to make sure nobody passes them (because they might loose some imaginary race), but they slow down after the passing lanes and aggravate the people behind that they just "won the race" over. Its a really dangerous driving style that I see all too much here in NZ.

I blame our bad roads for the high amount of deaths in NZ, Per Capita 7.4 people out of every 100k. Germany has just 4.3.

There is a lot of old cars on the roads here in NZ. And there is a very little roads with proper lane barriers. So that is no surprise. Meeting accidents seem to be a big thing here.

In Norway they have started to put in dividers on stretches of road where there has been many meeting accidents, and that really works. Could be something to consider for NZ. Many places there are enough room to just put it in without major changes to the road.

They placed a barrier on a very bad stretch of the road between Pukurua Bay and Paekakariki and placed a speed restrictions, It virtually stopped all accidents along that area. So the Norway idea has merit

DizzyD

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#1409802 20-Oct-2015 13:43

MikeB4:

They placed a barrier on a very bad stretch of the road between Pukurua Bay and Paekakariki and placed a speed restrictions, It virtually stopped all accidents along that area. So the Norway idea has merit

And the motorcyclists have not stopped with their complaining ever since.

frankv

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#1409869 20-Oct-2015 15:02

DizzyD:
I blame our bad roads for the high amount of deaths in NZ, Per Capita 7.4 people out of every 100k. Germany has just 4.3.

Per capita stats aren't fair in comparing NZ & Germany traffic deaths... in Germany, trains are the norm for commuting or travelling intercity. Many people don't even own a car.

Mind you, in terms of fatalities per billion km on the same page, NZ (8.3) is still a lot worse than Germany (4.9).

However, that may also be explained by the fact that proportionately more Germans live in cities, where speed limits are lower, so they don't get killed when do they have a traffic accident. And, between cities, they drive on motorways, which have a lower accident rate than normal roads.

The problem with building motorways (or railways) everywhere is that NZers are thinly distributed around the country, compared to Germany. So, we need more road length per citizen/taxpayer than Germany.

Bottom line... if you want a transport infrastructure like Germany, you need to live in a country like Germany. Or Norway.

jarledb

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#1409875 20-Oct-2015 15:10

frankv: Or Norway.

That last part is interesting. Why Norway?

DizzyD

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#1409894 20-Oct-2015 15:44

frankv:

Per capita stats aren't fair in comparing NZ & Germany traffic deaths... in Germany, trains are the norm for commuting or travelling intercity. Many people don't even own a car.

frankv: However, that may also be explained by the fact that proportionately more Germans live in cities, where speed limits are lower, so they don't get killed when do they have a traffic accident. And, between cities, they drive on motorways, which have a lower accident rate than normal roads.

Then look at the road fatalities column per 100 000 motor vehicles.
New Zealand is still far worse which just proves again how dangerous our roads are.
Remeber we are making a comparison with a country that has no speed enforcement on most of its autobahn.

frankv: The problem with building motorways (or railways) everywhere is that NZers are thinly distributed around the country, compared to Germany. So, we need more road length per citizen/taxpayer than Germany.

Thats only partially true. Many countries, Australia for example, have far less road length per citizen/taxpayer than we do. Roads these days don't need to be all taxpayer funded. Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) are the way to go.

frankv: Bottom line... if you want a transport infrastructure like Germany, you need to live in a country like Germany. Or Norway.

Norway??? Have you ever been there?

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frankv

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#1409897 20-Oct-2015 15:50

jarledb:
frankv: Or Norway.

That last part is interesting. Why Norway?

Just because you mentioned it

. And that Norway is spending money on improving its roads.

Kyanar

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#1409970 20-Oct-2015 17:28

DizzyD:
Thats only partially true. Many countries, Australia for example, have far less road length per citizen/taxpayer than we do. Roads these days don't need to be all taxpayer funded. Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) are the way to go.

Ugh. Do you have any idea how much it costs me in tolls to drive from one side of the city to the other? It's easily $25. PPPs suck.

jarledb

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#1410025 20-Oct-2015 18:45

frankv: Just because you mentioned it . And that Norway is spending money on improving its roads.

Trust me, road standards in NZ are better than in Norway. If you are going to look at money spent on roads, please remember that Norway suffers from cold winters that can wreck havoc on the road thanks to frost heaving. Here are some fun pictures of what that can look like. In addition half of the year a lot of cars drive on the roads with studded tires, something that also adds to road wear. And on top of that you can add the snow plows that have to work to keep the roads clear during winter.

Another issue contributing to the cost is that wages are higher in Norway, so road per $ is going to be less in Norway than in NZ.

DizzyD

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#1410027 20-Oct-2015 18:51

Kyanar:
DizzyD:
Thats only partially true. Many countries, Australia for example, have far less road length per citizen/taxpayer than we do. Roads these days don't need to be all taxpayer funded. Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) are the way to go.

Ugh. Do you have any idea how much it costs me in tolls to drive from one side of the city to the other? It's easily $25. PPPs suck.

Then take the slow route. Nobody is forcing you to drive the toll route.

Kyanar

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#1410259 20-Oct-2015 23:50

DizzyD:

Then take the slow route. Nobody is forcing you to drive the toll route.

You're completely missing the point. Public Private Partnerships result in infrastructure that costs the taxpayers more because inevitably the private company that invested in it prices it too high, nobody uses it, and the public purse is expected to compensate them for the loss. As the saying goes, privatise the profit and socialise the risk.

There should be less PPPs, not more.

DizzyD

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#1410297 21-Oct-2015 08:10

Kyanar:
DizzyD:

Then take the slow route. Nobody is forcing you to drive the toll route.

You're completely missing the point. Public Private Partnerships result in infrastructure that costs the taxpayers more because inevitably the private company that invested in it prices it too high, nobody uses it, and the public purse is expected to compensate them for the loss. As the saying goes, privatise the profit and socialise the risk.

There should be less PPPs, not more.

But I as a taxpayer will rather pay something towards tolls if it means me getting to my destination faster/or on improved infrastructure. Transmission Gully is an excellent example, I will quiet happily fork out to make use of it.

Its all about choice. Nobody is forcing anybody to use the new road. And its only those that appreciate the new infrastructure that are contributing to it. Not all taxpayers as you have applied.

Besides. You implying that all PPP infrastructure results in tolls. That is also incorrect.

Kyanar:

Ugh. Do you have any idea how much it costs me in tolls to drive from one side of the city to the other? It's easily $25. PPPs suck.

This does sound expensive. Can you please back this one up. And from where to where are you driving? And, have you made a comparison with another form of transport? Or tried a different route maybe?

graemeh

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#1410346 21-Oct-2015 09:47

DizzyD:
Kyanar: Ugh. Do you have any idea how much it costs me in tolls to drive from one side of the city to the other? It's easily $25. PPPs suck.

This does sound expensive. Can you please back this one up. And from where to where are you driving? And, have you made a comparison with another form of transport? Or tried a different route maybe?

Sounds like Sydney, I've heard that complaint about driving there.

frankv

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#1410385 21-Oct-2015 10:46

graemeh:
DizzyD:
Kyanar: Ugh. Do you have any idea how much it costs me in tolls to drive from one side of the city to the other? It's easily $25. PPPs suck.

This does sound expensive. Can you please back this one up. And from where to where are you driving? And, have you made a comparison with another form of transport? Or tried a different route maybe?

Sounds like Sydney, I've heard that complaint about driving there.

The last P stands for Partnership. It implies that both public & private contribute something, and get something out.

The notion of a toll road where the public (i.e. one of the partners) has to pay for what the partnership produced seems crazy to me.

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