Clean car package

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#2742217 10-Jul-2021 17:26

jarledb:

gmball:

This governments clean car package reminds me of the attached photo (plus have a read of the coal usage this year for the Huntly power station).

Even on pure coal (which is not what is used in NZ) the CO2 emissions would be lower than for a diesel or petrol car.

A lot of the time the way people measure petrol/diesel vs EV is by looking at tailpipe emissions. That is not the full CO2 emission of diesel or petrol. The oil have to be extracted, transported, refined and then transported again before it gets in the car and can be used. All those steps produce a lot of CO2, yet the stated emission is grams per km from the burning of that fuel.

Using this calculator for my car (exact efficiency and electricity mix etc) vs bmw m3 my car is ahead at only 24,000km or so , that calculator is fully researched from peer reviewed sources etc but doesnt take into account any batter recycling benefits etc. Even selecting Poland (worse coal use by far) its only 49,000km

https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/?batteryLifetime=240000&batteryCapacity=72.5&greenhouseGas=65&electricCarRange=492&carbonElectricityMix=24&greenhouseBattery=30&greenhouseWTT=25&greenhouseTTW=204&batteryPenalty=0.9&annualMileage=14219&ICECurb=1595&ECurb=1847&NEDCpenalty=0.39&decarbonization=0&fbclid=IwAR210AB-3fxelDvYuGhzNStYu7Ho6szQO1u5-yjeEflHK9RJvlKbplV64wo

tdgeek

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#2742228 10-Jul-2021 17:49

jarledb:

gmball:

This governments clean car package reminds me of the attached photo (plus have a read of the coal usage this year for the Huntly power station).

Even on pure coal (which is not what is used in NZ) the CO2 emissions would be lower than for a diesel or petrol car.

A lot of the time the way people measure petrol/diesel vs EV is by looking at tailpipe emissions. That is not the full CO2 emission of diesel or petrol. The oil have to be extracted, transported, refined and then transported again before it gets in the car and can be used. All those steps produce a lot of CO2, yet the stated emission is grams per km from the burning of that fuel.

100% agree. Ev's running via coal are still better. But how much better? Its a bit like how cheap they are to run, 30c per litre equivalent, but the reality is they are foregoing 70c per litre RUC. In many ways if you own a reasonably fuel efficient ICE its better to keep using it rather than add the carbon from a new and not needed EV/battery pack. I live green energy, but the masses buy on cost to run. And the price premium for an EV makes an ICE cost effective. 40k ICE Kona vs 80k EV Kona?

mudguard

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#2742232 10-Jul-2021 17:59

Scott3:

That said, I don't think they would be as good as a BMW M3 as a track day car. Can consume 400km of range in 30mins on the track, and I think they are prone to overheating driveline stuff if run for an extended period.

At least there is a 50kW fast charger at hampton downs.

At least one company specializes in largely performance oriented parts to modify tesla's:

https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/shop/

Early in NZ's ev days there a person that was tracking their 1st gen leaf too. (modified suspension and some kind of track specific tires)

That's true, you see all sorts at track days. And to be fair (in response to another poster) track days are generally hard on any car with stock brakes. Petrol you can kind of keep going, I did wonder if flat out driving and fast charging could get you same experience.

My interest in EV is if there is any real difference in driving dynamic. IE they will mostly be 4WD, have fairly neutral handling and be heavy, whereas it's fun to drive FWD cars, RWD on the limit. I have had a blast at track days in an Evo (9) I think, but it was just point and shoot, it didn't matter what you did, you got on the throttle and pointed it and it sorted it out. Whereas in some in FWD cars, they could mimic RWD traits and you'd feel rewarded for getting a good lap in.

jarledb

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#2742233 10-Jul-2021 18:02

tdgeek:

100% agree. Ev's running via coal are still better. But how much better? Its a bit like how cheap they are to run, 30c per litre equivalent, but the reality is they are foregoing 70c per litre RUC. In many ways if you own a reasonably fuel efficient ICE its better to keep using it rather than add the carbon from a new and not needed EV/battery pack. I live green energy, but the masses buy on cost to run. And the price premium for an EV makes an ICE cost effective. 40k ICE Kona vs 80k EV Kona?

The price difference between EVs and ICEs are a transitional thing. Batteries are getting cheaper, and energy production for EVs are getting greener.

We need the people that have been buying and are buying EVs at a premium to get there though. Without a market for the EVs this would not be happening.

Companies like Tesla have pushed the whole industry forward towards EVs. Just look at how companies like Kia/Hyundai, Volkswagen Group (Seat, Cupra, VW, Audi, Porsche etc), Ford, GMC etc. are moving towards EVs now.

There are several people that have shown that EVs for them are a better deal than ICEs already, because their running costs are lower with EVs than they were with ICEs, even with a relatively more expensive car.

I think the government will have to make sure that EVs make sense for people economically, and the Clean car package is a part of that. I think it would be a mistake to introduce RUC for EVs too soon.

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RobDickinson

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#2742234 10-Jul-2021 18:02

These have some parts too..
https://unpluggedperformance.com/

You can change the drive balance on track mode is you like

RobDickinson

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#2742235 10-Jul-2021 18:04

Ruc is out until April 2024 now at least

mudguard

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#2742236 10-Jul-2021 18:10

RobDickinson: These have some parts too..
https://unpluggedperformance.com/

You can change the drive balance on track mode is you like

I couldn't find that on the website, but it was an older article. Would be nice to permanently set the bias to whatever you like for something like a track day.

Nonetheless, if EVs approach Corolla/Camry money with reasonable range then I could use one for work.

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RobDickinson

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#2742237 10-Jul-2021 18:11

P3 has like 20 memories for track mode settings

tdgeek

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#2742239 10-Jul-2021 18:16

jarledb:

The price difference between EVs and ICEs are a transitional thing. Batteries are getting cheaper, and energy production for EVs are getting greener.

We need the people that have been buying and are buying EVs at a premium to get there though. Without a market for the EVs this would not be happening.

Companies like Tesla have pushed the whole industry forward towards EVs. Just look at how companies like Kia/Hyundai, Volkswagen Group (Seat, Cupra, VW, Audi, Porsche etc), Ford, GMC etc. are moving towards EVs now.

There are several people that have shown that EVs for them are a better deal than ICEs already, because their running costs are lower with EVs than they were with ICEs, even with a relatively more expensive car.

I think the government will have to make sure that EVs make sense for people economically, and the Clean car package is a part of that. I think it would be a mistake to introduce RUC for EVs too soon.

I dont disagree. RUC right now is a non event, its tiny as the EV market is tiny. If we look at Climate Change, we need the masses into EV's, not 60k cars. From what I see there is no massive import market for pre owned EV's here, that's the problem. While we can give subsidies to new EV buyers who don't need it, thats not really helping mass adoption. You will probably say that these new subsidised EV's will become pre owned sales in the future, yes they will, but again that will be tiny.

One day when EV prices are close to ICE the problem will look after itself, and subsidies will have been just a drop in that bucket. We are now seeing Rangers ad Hiluxes in massive spikes in sales. Thats not helping climate change, but OTOH these buyers dont have an alternative. a six figure EV ute is not an alternative, if you could actually get them here

IMHO the only way for the masses to uptake EV's is price parity, the will take time. Many of my friends are buying new, all are hybrids as EV's are not cost effective.

RobDickinson

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#2742243 10-Jul-2021 18:32

The used side of things is a head scratcher, yes thats where most of our leafs are from but there just isnt the market to buy from yet

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#2742244 10-Jul-2021 18:35

gmball:
This governments clean car package reminds me of the attached photo (plus have a read of the coal usage this year for the Huntly power station).

This has been debunked so many times, that it might as well be part of a flat-Earth movement.

Studies were done in Virginia and Australia, where coal powered electricity is common, that EV's are still better than ICE for emissions.

A million small engines are going to be less efficient than a small number of large generators. This is even the case when giving the ICE engine the advantage of including electric line losses, and excluding the additional emissions of the refining and transporting fuel to stations.

If you include diesel vehicles, it's even more lop-sided.

According to the US Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy:

“EVs convert about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels.

Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.”

Scott3

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#2742261 10-Jul-2021 19:36

With the whole long tailpipe argument. (EV emissions moved to smokestacks)

Even if the argument did stack up, getting the emissions away from the cars (which are mostly in cities) would be a fairly good outcome. There are significant negitive human health outcomes from vehicle emissions, especially diesel.

Technofreak

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#2742289 10-Jul-2021 22:21

Interesting comments here on where the feedback actually ends up in the case of second hand EV's. https://www.driven.co.nz/news/watch-who-really-benefits-from-the-government-s-clean-car-feebate-scheme/

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Obraik

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#2742298 10-Jul-2021 22:58

mudguard: Nonetheless, if EVs approach Corolla/Camry money with reasonable range then I could use one for work.

A Model 3 is now only $9k more than a top specced Camry

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Scott3

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#2742304 10-Jul-2021 23:56

Technofreak: Interesting comments here on where the feedback actually ends up in the case of second hand EV's. https://www.driven.co.nz/news/watch-who-really-benefits-from-the-government-s-clean-car-feebate-scheme/

A lot of it is basic (High school level) economics.

Gradient's of supply and demand curves determines how the incidents of the subsidy is shared.

For new cars (in the long run), NZ is so small in terms of our demand for cars on the global scale that we are a price taker. Essentially automakers will supply us as many car's as we want at "the price", and zero cars if we weren't willing to pay that.

As such for new cars we expect that consumers should get the entire benefit of the subsidy in NZ. Perhaps even more if increased sales volume leads to better economy of scale. Higher volumes should also see more companies bothering to offer their EV's on NZ.

Any brand that tries to take a decent bite from the subsidy will see their competitiveness decrease and volume drop compared to other brands. Tesla just dropped roughly $3k from their prices today. If Hyundai hiked there ioniq prices they would be left with a less competitive offering relatively...

On a global scale, so many countries have EV incentives that the manufactures will get a bite. This is not all bad. Them making an OK profit margin on EV's is what encourages them to poor money into R+D, scale up production etc.

For used car's, we only get a handful of them ex UK, so probiably won't impact the price. As such full incidence of the subsidy goes to the consumer.

However we buy lots ex-japan, and EV's aren't super popular in japan, and not that many cars seem to be getting auctioned at the moment due to the pandemic. I aggree with the Industry body leader in the article that it is likely that NZ dealers are bidding each other up when buying stock, essentially increasing the price of used EV's across the board in japan. It is correct that in this case most of the incident's of the subsidy goes to the seller.

While it is a pity that this money leaves NZ, it is not all bad news. Essentially NZ paying higher prices will mean that NZ buyers will win a larger percentage of auctions, and more EV's will flow into NZ, which is the ultimate goal of the program.

Long term improved residuals on japan EV's might see things like cheaper lease rates in japan, more japan based buyers opting for a used rather than used EV, more japan based buyers buying EV's rather than other tech. If these things happen it will increase the supply of used EV's coming on the market in 2-4 years in japan.

Note that both the UK and japan government have already paid decent subsidies on the EV's when they were sold new their. NZ sneaking in and buying up 2-4 year old used EV's mean their governments only get 2-4 years of emission reduction benefits from having those cars on the road. NZ get the rest of the vehicles life (10+ years).

Finally a EV subsidy on used imports is extremely unusual globally. I think a major reason for it being in place is political partiality. Big chunk of NZ like myself who arn't willing to pay pay $40k+ for a New EV, but can shop in the price range of a fresh used import from japan.

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