Should cyclists pay road taxes ?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Should cyclists pay road taxes ?

1 | ... | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | ... | 22

17104 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2727495 11-Jun-2021 19:42

For office workers some office buildings are utterly cycle storage and changing unfriendly and some are better. Another big thing is cycleways and cycle lanes where they exist on a route it's so much easier.

elpenguino

3419 posts

Uber Geek

#2727496 11-Jun-2021 19:47

GV27:
Senecio:

Would love to see a study undertaken. Take a 1,000 people who cycle and 1,000 who don't. I'm confident that you'll find that the cyclists pay more in total tax contribution than those who don't cycle.

I bet you'd also see a correlation between having higher income and more control over their own hours with those who insist cycling is something everyone can do because they can make it work for them personally vs. those who on lower incomes too.

That's not the way increased cycling benefits congestion. We're not going to solve our transport problems by getting you on your bike to commute from say, Albany to papakura.

If cycling can take lots of short trips, that leaves the roads freer for users who need to drive longer distances.
I really don't understand the attitude of people like sir1963. If you love your car so much, getting every other possible driver onto a bike is going to be a very good thing for you.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2727498 11-Jun-2021 20:12

SomeoneSomewhere:

Limit the tax, or limit the exemption?

We want to tax heavy vehicles because they significantly damage the roads and if businesses can use rail or buy locally with minimal cost increases, we want to incentivise that.

We want to tax lighter vehicles to reduce congestion when people could be on public transport, cycles, walking, or combining trips, so that we don't have to keep building roads as much.

This is before considering carbon.

The basic answer is that government policy wants to discourage the use of road transport where possible and selective taxation is one of its most effective tools.

Except one heavy truck is more efficient and produces less pollution than multiple smaller ones to shift the same load.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2727499 11-Jun-2021 20:14

Yes, but if you continue that trend you find it's better still to chuck it on a train. Or send it across the road rather than down the Christchurch.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2727515 11-Jun-2021 20:43

Batman:

sir1963:

I have a solution.

Get rid of fuel and RUC taxes/fees.

Get rid of roading from council rates

Bill everyone an extra $3k in income tax, and councils get funded by the central pool along with NZTA.

Funding for roads and cycleways can then be funded on a proportionate basis, so if cycling numbers increase, they get more funding. And it does away with the RUC issue for electric vehicles.

Funding can be calculated on road type, highways vs gravel, Addition harbour bridge vs cycle bridge.

Everyone pays equally , everyone benefits equally.

that's not equal.

to be equal - 1. heavier things pay proportionately more. 2. and payment needs to be per unit distance travelled.

so when you buy bread/cheese or an iphone on trademe next time, it won't cost you $3, it will cost you $300.

what if we take into account the economic good the vehicle does.

A fire engine does more good than a private car , particularly if its your home burning down.

A Truck delivering fresh food does more good than a boy racer

A taxi getting a surgeon to a hospital in an emergency does more good than a cyclist joy riding.

Does that change the equation , does it change what is fair, or equal ?

Everyone benefits from economic activity, from fresh food being available, medical supplies, jobs, education.

Batman

Mad Scientist
29760 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2727523 11-Jun-2021 21:10

sir1963:

Batman:

quote sir1963:

I have a solution.

Get rid of fuel and RUC taxes/fees.

Get rid of roading from council rates

Bill everyone an extra $3k in income tax, and councils get funded by the central pool along with NZTA.

Funding for roads and cycleways can then be funded on a proportionate basis, so if cycling numbers increase, they get more funding. And it does away with the RUC issue for electric vehicles.

Funding can be calculated on road type, highways vs gravel, Addition harbour bridge vs cycle bridge.

Everyone pays equally , everyone benefits equally.

/quote

that's not equal.

to be equal - 1. heavier things pay proportionately more. 2. and payment needs to be per unit distance travelled.

so when you buy bread/cheese or an iphone on trademe next time, it won't cost you $3, it will cost you $300.

what if we take into account the economic good the vehicle does.

A fire engine does more good than a private car , particularly if its your home burning down.

A Truck delivering fresh food does more good than a boy racer

A taxi getting a surgeon to a hospital in an emergency does more good than a cyclist joy riding.

Does that change the equation , does it change what is fair, or equal ?

Everyone benefits from economic activity, from fresh food being available, medical supplies, jobs, education.

you have just described "fairness" and equality is not the same.

i propose a better solution to help you be more "fair".

fire engine don't go to a burning house that pay less than $3000 in rates, it's worth less, just let it burn.

put all boy racers in jail, pay truck drivers $100 an hour. that's more fair.

give every surgeon a siren that he can turn on, everybody move out of the way. Surgeon don't operate on old people or beneficiaries- only if you pay more than 40k in tax.

in fact i have the best solution to elitism. if you are born elite you live and get everything, if you are born not an elite or have any defect might as well just ship these people off to another country on a wooden boat - don't waste money on planes.

which one is it you are after - govt finance based on elitism or equality. remember if you get voted as PM you can do what you want, so better start campaigning soon.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2727526 11-Jun-2021 21:15

sir1963:

what if we take into account the economic good the vehicle does.

A fire engine does more good than a private car , particularly if its your home burning down.

A Truck delivering fresh food does more good than a boy racer

A taxi getting a surgeon to a hospital in an emergency does more good than a cyclist joy riding.

Does that change the equation , does it change what is fair, or equal ?

Everyone benefits from economic activity, from fresh food being available, medical supplies, jobs, education.

In general, those kinds of things are achieved by subsidising the final product, not by removing charges for the intermediate steps. We might, for example, subsidise school lunches produced locally but not salmon fillets shipped from the south island for a corporate dinner. A flat tax on transport, however, would generally favour the latter.

Equinox IT

Cloud spending continues to surge globally, but most organisations haven’t made the changes necessary to maximise the value and cost-efficiency benefits of their cloud investments. Download the whitepaper From Overspend to Advantage now.

SaltyNZ

8218 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#2727664 12-Jun-2021 13:53

sir1963:

But on the flip side, the users who drive the whole economy are rewarded.

Perhaps we should move them to rail. Then you won't need to worry about them having to pay road taxes, congestion will be vastly reduced and they won't be tearing up the roads 10,000x more than cyclists.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2727691 12-Jun-2021 16:14

SaltyNZ:

sir1963:

But on the flip side, the users who drive the whole economy are rewarded.

Perhaps we should move them to rail. Then you won't need to worry about them having to pay road taxes, congestion will be vastly reduced and they won't be tearing up the roads 10,000x more than cyclists.

Pipiriki is keenly awaiting the rail, as is Opotiki, Taupo, Turangi, Kaitaia, etc etc etc etc etc .

Heck you can not even get from Auckland airport to centra Auckland by rail.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2727693 12-Jun-2021 16:31

That's a reason to build more rail lines, not more roads.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2727756 12-Jun-2021 19:20

SomeoneSomewhere:

That's a reason to build more rail lines, not more roads.

Looking at Google they are really expensive to build.

Then on top of that we would need to buy significantly more rolling stock + locomotive engines.

And then on top of this would be electrification, unless you want diesel locomotives.

And STILL you would need trucks to get goods to the trains, so roads capable of sustaining that traffic is still needed.

Then we have the issue of single point of failure, the Kaikoura earthquake damage to rail proved that.

Trucks can also go over hills, rail need to either take long detours or have expensive tunnels or cuttings.

The argument for rail in NZ is not all that clear cut, we could also ship more using shipping.

SomeoneSomewhere

1802 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2727761 12-Jun-2021 19:51

Roads are expensive to build, too. And maintenance is often cheaper than roads. Especially for larger traffic volumes.

The other arguments are more-or-less valid, although they mostly apply to *completely* replacing trucks, which I don't think anyone is suggesting.

Sure, we would need more trains. But then we wouldn't need as many trucks.

Diesel locomotives are still vastly more efficient than diesel trucks in terms of tonne-miles.

Large freight operations can and do either take rail directly to the customers (coal, steel, milk) or to a container port or transfer facility, so that trucks are only doing the last few (tens of) miles. This reduces the need for e.g. trucks going over the Remutakas or through the Central Plateau.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18657 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2727768 12-Jun-2021 20:43

America, the land of the car if there ever was one, has been upgrading its rail network after years of neglect. Europe has rail connections everywhere. These places must know something.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2727777 12-Jun-2021 22:05

Rikkitic:

America, the land of the car if there ever was one, has been upgrading its rail network after years of neglect. Europe has rail connections everywhere. These places must know something.

They do, and I have use the European rail system extensively, love the London Tube, Paris Underground, Trains around Germany.

They also have a huge motorway system and truck freight network.

However, even if we upgrade the rail system, cyclists should still be paying.

mattwnz

20141 posts

Uber Geek

#2727800 13-Jun-2021 01:26

sir1963:

Rikkitic:

America, the land of the car if there ever was one, has been upgrading its rail network after years of neglect. Europe has rail connections everywhere. These places must know something.

They do, and I have use the European rail system extensively, love the London Tube, Paris Underground, Trains around Germany.

They also have a huge motorway system and truck freight network.

However, even if we upgrade the rail system, cyclists should still be paying.

Yeah, that toddler riding their tricycle down the footpath should definitely be paying. Toddlers don't even pay taxes.

1 | ... | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | ... | 22