What will power our vehicles in the future?

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Uber Geek

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#2776283 11-Sep-2021 09:01

Construction of the Haru Oni project in Chile has officially started – to produce petrol for Porsche.

They’re going to use the well known (and lossy) process of converting green hydrogen and air-captured carbon dioxide to e-methanol, catalyzed, polymerized and hydrogenated into synthetic gasoline.

The plant’s being built in the (very windy) Magallanes region of Patagonia, north of regional capital Punta Arenas. One of those remote, energy-rich places where liquid fuel conversion’s an economically viable way to export energy products.

It’s a collaborative project overseen by Siemens Energy as a systems integrator, Highly Innovative Fuels (HIF =Andes Mining & Energy) Empresas Gasco, and others including Enel - who’ll initially produce the green hydrogen via a 3.4 MW wind turbine and a 1.25 MW electrolyzer.

By the end of 2022 that’ll be processed into 350 tonnes/year of e-methanol and 130,000 litres/year of synthetic Fuel.

In the next two phases, capacity’s to reach some 55 million litres per year by 2024, and around 550 million litres by 2026 (in comparison NZ consumed over 3,000 million litres of petrol in 2008).

If that GTHO Falcon’s still parked in your garage in 2040 – this is what you’ll be running it on..

Technofreak

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#2779045 15-Sep-2021 22:16

Another aviation development. I see it crossed the English a few days ago.

https://www.voltaero.aero/en/feature-stories/cassio1-first-public-presentation/

This one is a hybrid. Seems rather complicated. It also uses an automotive engine. I'm not convinced that's a good option as automotive engines are not generally successfully converted for use in an aircraft.

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GV27

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#2779127 16-Sep-2021 09:16

When you look at the economic capture of our oil and gas industry, and that they're likely to be the ones who distribute hydrogen if we ever get to a point where people are actually building HVs en masse, then we're locking ourselves into a market that has been hostile to the economy it operates in.

EVs do not have that issue. You can charge them at home. The cars themselves are incredibly simple machines, as opposed to an HV which still requires an engine and all the moving parts and wear that comes with it.

Meanwhile for us to make hydrogen work, we're going to need to be retrofitting hugely expensive pressurised tanks and delivery systems to petrol stations, locking in a huge base point for generating ROI and once again making ourselves rely on an industry that has shown time and time again to have issues with competition and pricing.

Forgive me for not being super enthusiastic about that.

frankv

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#2779129 16-Sep-2021 09:19

Technofreak: Another aviation development. I see it crossed the English a few days ago.

https://www.voltaero.aero/en/feature-stories/cassio1-first-public-presentation/

This one is a hybrid. Seems rather complicated. It also uses an automotive engine. I'm not convinced that's a good option as automotive engines are not generally successfully converted for use in an aircraft.

I agree that using 3 electric motors plus an ICE for one propellor seems overly complex. I can see that retaining the forward-facing motors makes sense in a flying testbed, in case of failure of the aft-facing system.

A little off-topic, but the last sentence is dubious. As the owner of a Subaru-powered aircraft, I am perhaps more aware than most of automotive engines and their suitability for aircraft use (and I admit somewhat biased). Automotive engines themselves aren't problematic, and are technologically superior to typical aircraft engines where (e.g.) electronic ignition, fuel injection, and turbocharging are uncommon, leaded fuel is often needed, as is a capacious and generous wallet. There are certainly issues, typically with cooling -- running an automotive engine at 5,000rpm continuously means a lot more heat is generated than in a car, so a better cooling system is needed. Often there's no prior art on how best to design that, so there's a certain amount of trial and error. But once that's sorted, automotive engines are as reliable as Rotaxs or Lycomings.

Technofreak

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#2779250 16-Sep-2021 10:59

frankv:

Technofreak: Another aviation development. I see it crossed the English a few days ago.

https://www.voltaero.aero/en/feature-stories/cassio1-first-public-presentation/

This one is a hybrid. Seems rather complicated. It also uses an automotive engine. I'm not convinced that's a good option as automotive engines are not generally successfully converted for use in an aircraft.

I agree that using 3 electric motors plus an ICE for one propellor seems overly complex. I can see that retaining the forward-facing motors makes sense in a flying testbed, in case of failure of the aft-facing system.

A little off-topic, but the last sentence is dubious. As the owner of a Subaru-powered aircraft, I am perhaps more aware than most of automotive engines and their suitability for aircraft use (and I admit somewhat biased). Automotive engines themselves aren't problematic, and are technologically superior to typical aircraft engines where (e.g.) electronic ignition, fuel injection, and turbocharging are uncommon, leaded fuel is often needed, as is a capacious and generous wallet. There are certainly issues, typically with cooling -- running an automotive engine at 5,000rpm continuously means a lot more heat is generated than in a car, so a better cooling system is needed. Often there's no prior art on how best to design that, so there's a certain amount of trial and error. But once that's sorted, automotive engines are as reliable as Rotaxs or Lycomings.

Turbo charging and fuel injection are very common in aircraft engines. Automotive engines may be technologically superior but they don't give better reliability nor do they improve efficiency. Aircraft engines may be an old design but it's very hard to improve on them for the use they were designed for. I'm biased too. If I were building a Homebuilt aircraft I would run as far away as I could from an automotive power plant. I've seen the trials many people have been through with automotive engines.

Some smaller engines have been mildly successful. Note, I said generally not successful. Other than cooling the man problem has been the reduction gearbox or drive systems that reduce the relatively high RPM of an automotive engine down to a speed that is suitable for a propeller. There are very few reliable reduction systems.

Just take a look at Orenda (Canada), Super Air and FieldAir here in New Zealand with their V8 conversion attempts. There are plenty of other failures as well.

The engines themselves can be as reliable but not always, as automotive engines in a motor car don't run at the same high power settings as in an aircraft. e.g. 100% at every take off and usually 75% in the cruise.

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elpenguino

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#2779259 16-Sep-2021 11:19

GV27:

When you look at the economic capture of our oil and gas industry, and that they're likely to be the ones who distribute hydrogen if we ever get to a point where people are actually building HVs en masse, then we're locking ourselves into a market that has been hostile to the economy it operates in.

EVs do not have that issue. You can charge them at home. The cars themselves are incredibly simple machines, as opposed to an HV which still requires an engine and all the moving parts and wear that comes with it.

Meanwhile for us to make hydrogen work, we're going to need to be retrofitting hugely expensive pressurised tanks and delivery systems to petrol stations, locking in a huge base point for generating ROI and once again making ourselves rely on an industry that has shown time and time again to have issues with competition and pricing.

Forgive me for not being super enthusiastic about that.

All good points. Perhaps we'll also see decentralisation of H2 production. You can already buy industrial, washing machine-sized electrolysers so perhaps, over time, we'll get units with the throughput suitable for domestic or commercial vehicle users.

Get the solar panels on the roof connected up to your electrolyser in the garage for a totally in-house system.

Don't forget there's also HFC vehicles which don't have the wear and tear of a reciprocating engine.

I can see the short re-fuelling time of an H2 vehicle being advantageous for some users.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Technofreak

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#2779264 16-Sep-2021 11:30

I see headlines today saying Air New Zealand has partnered with Airbus to investigate hydrogen powered aircraft. Aiming for 2030.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/451586/air-nz-investigates-viability-of-hydrogen-powered-aircraft

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frankv

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#2779275 16-Sep-2021 12:02

Technofreak:

Turbo charging and fuel injection are very common in aircraft engines.

Some smaller engines have been mildly successful. Note, I said generally not successful. Other than cooling the man problem has been the reduction gearbox or drive systems that reduce the relatively high RPM of an automotive engine down to a speed that is suitable for a propeller. There are very few reliable reduction systems.

Just take a look at Orenda (Canada), Super Air and FeildAir here in New Zealand with their V8 conversion attempts. There are plenty of other failures as well.

The engines themselves can be as reliable but not always, as automotive engines in a motor car don't run at the same high power settings as in an aircraft. e.g. 100% at every take off and usually 75% in the cruise.

You're right... I'd forgotten the examples you list. I'll add another NZ project for a turbo rotary powered helicopter? gyrocopter? that was launched with much fanfare a decade or so ago. And yes, turbo and fuel injection are common on larger aircraft engines. My knowledge is all around smaller engines, under about 160hp, where belt drives or the Sub4/Autoflight gearbox are commonly used successfully. I suspect that the R&D around the gearbox and cooling and so on makes commercialisation near-impossible, especially in aviation where certification costs are enormous. It's only feasible for enthusiasts who don't have to pay R&D engineers.

Yet stories abound that the Subaru engine (and the Corvair) were originally designed as aircraft engines. I don't know how true they are.

Technofreak

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#2779302 16-Sep-2021 13:03

frankv:

You're right... I'd forgotten the examples you list. I'll add another NZ project for a turbo rotary powered helicopter? gyrocopter? that was launched with much fanfare a decade or so ago. And yes, turbo and fuel injection are common on larger aircraft engines. My knowledge is all around smaller engines, under about 160hp, where belt drives or the Sub4/Autoflight gearbox are commonly used successfully. I suspect that the R&D around the gearbox and cooling and so on makes commercialisation near-impossible, especially in aviation where certification costs are enormous. It's only feasible for enthusiasts who don't have to pay R&D engineers.

Yet stories abound that the Subaru engine (and the Corvair) were originally designed as aircraft engines. I don't know how true they are.

Agree, in the smaller/lower powered engines there's been a lot more success. I'd forgotten about the rotary project. I've heard good things about the Sub4 but don't know much about it.

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RUKI

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#2779325 16-Sep-2021 13:31

Topic starter had not defined "the future" . Let think about next 5 years.
From practical point of view, knowing what has been happening in Japan in the last 5 years - I.e. what type of cars were most popular, knowing that NZ mainly source second hand cars from Japan, usually 3-5-7 year olds (coincides with expiration of WOF in Japan), it is logical to assume that next five years NZ will be importing mainly:
- Hybrids
- Gasoline and Diesel (ICE) vehicles, that is where VANs, SUV and Utes will fall under
- EVs in much smaller numbers as other 3 categories above.

If you are looking 100 years ahead - you may easily assume horses and dog sleds :) or flying disks ....

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Tinkerisk

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#2788372 2-Oct-2021 18:50

RUKI: If you are looking 100 years ahead - you may easily assume horses and dog sleds :) or flying disks ....

Optimist! :-)

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tdgeek

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#2788380 2-Oct-2021 19:16

GV27:

When you look at the economic capture of our oil and gas industry, and that they're likely to be the ones who distribute hydrogen if we ever get to a point where people are actually building HVs en masse, then we're locking ourselves into a market that has been hostile to the economy it operates in.

EVs do not have that issue. You can charge them at home. The cars themselves are incredibly simple machines, as opposed to an HV which still requires an engine and all the moving parts and wear that comes with it.

Meanwhile for us to make hydrogen work, we're going to need to be retrofitting hugely expensive pressurised tanks and delivery systems to petrol stations, locking in a huge base point for generating ROI and once again making ourselves rely on an industry that has shown time and time again to have issues with competition and pricing.

Forgive me for not being super enthusiastic about that.

ICE are complicated whether its petrol, diesel or H2. An EV has 20 moving parts and no transmission? While EV is a long way off as the daily driver for most of us, K.I.S.S.

WyleECoyoteNZ

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#2788512 3-Oct-2021 11:23

Huge international interest in the Meridian Energy \ Contact Energy Green Hydrogen plant

https://www.autocar.co.nz/huge-international-interest-in-creating-nz-green-hydrogen-plant/

Technofreak

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#2805136 1-Nov-2021 10:06

Airbus are saying 2035 is a realistic date for the introduction of hydrogen powered aircraft.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/airbus-gears-up-for-hydrogen-jet-as-fuel-of-future-edges-closer-to-reality-1.4685134

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RobDickinson

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#2805149 1-Nov-2021 10:24

Sigh 2035?

We're currently at about 250wh/kg energy density for batteries

Large commercial aircraft should be doable with 400wh/kg

We should reach that at about 2028 or so.

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