FIAT / Chrysler caught cheating on emissions.....

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › FIAT / Chrysler caught cheating on emissions.....

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KiwiME

213 posts

Master Geek

#1703501 15-Jan-2017 12:59

There is a good YouTube video about how a German VW TDI owner and professional hacker who got into his ECU and found the code that detected the EU driving cycle by being with a tight distance and speed tolerance, and with the later added check of steering movement determined which emissions profile to apply.

He also found similar firmware in an Opel diesel car that integrated speed x distance in each gear to do the same.

Two years ago I never would have thought any company would take such a massive risk, especially German, and especially VW who had a previous history of withdrawing TDIs from the strict California market in years where they could not comply with NOx; 2000 and 2004 for example.

I studied alternative fuel for diesels in uni (Canterbury) and have been pro-diesel till recently but it seems they are never going to get it right before they all have to disappear due to GG emissions.

Linuxluver

5828 posts

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#1703562 15-Jan-2017 15:08

richms:

Im shocked that people dont expect them to do this. If you tell them they have to meet certain criteria then they will design it to meet that. Blame the people that set the tests up, if it was supposed to be clean at all revs and power outputs then they should have been testing for that.

The regulations specify what is required. That is the benchmark. They didn't meet it. They chose instead to cheat. That is the problem here.....not the tests.

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Linuxluver

5828 posts

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#1703565 15-Jan-2017 15:12

blakamin:

Unfortunately it's the same with EV

Until we stop burning coal to power your car, it'll still have an impact.

What goes in to mining/extraction of lithium?

What are its after-effects?

Red herring on the coal thing. NZ is 80% to 93% renewables.

A millions cars emitting zero everywhere is still better than a handful of coal power plants emitting a few locations. Those can be dealt with. The technology is there. Rolling over a stock of a million cars is much more difficult....so best get started.

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Scott3

3963 posts

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#1703632 15-Jan-2017 18:04

Linuxluver:

The regulations specify what is required. That is the benchmark. They didn't meet it. They chose instead to cheat. That is the problem here.....not the tests.

The tests aren't a great representation of the real world. Even without cheating, it is common for diesel cars to emit far more in the real world than they do in the lab.

For example, the tests call for a particular rate of acceleration (i.e. test driver to operate the accelerator such that car runs at speed specified for that point of the test). Automakers know what max acceleration specified for the test is, and if this doesn't require flooring the accelerator, the car will never be tested in that state. (At least the non-turbo diesel I learned to drive in this was the state when the engine smoked the most...)

You can drop in any other unusual operating parameter that you know won't get tested, and get a similar story... For example: high altitude, extreme temperature, overloaded vehicle state, towing, Worn out engine, poor gear selection (manual) etc. Unauthorized owner tampering (EGR disable, DPF delete, Adblue spoof chip etc) also is an issue.

This is my understanding anyway.

Net result is despite dramatically tightening exhaust emissions, air quality worsened in european cities with high diesel penetration (such as paris).

Linuxluver

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#1703773 15-Jan-2017 21:02

Scott3:

Linuxluver:

The regulations specify what is required. That is the benchmark. They didn't meet it. They chose instead to cheat. That is the problem here.....not the tests.

The tests aren't a great representation of the real world. Even without cheating, it is common for diesel cars to emit far more in the real world than they do in the lab.

For example, the tests call for a particular rate of acceleration (i.e. test driver to operate the accelerator such that car runs at speed specified for that point of the test). Automakers know what max acceleration specified for the test is, and if this doesn't require flooring the accelerator, the car will never be tested in that state. (At least the non-turbo diesel I learned to drive in this was the state when the engine smoked the most...)

You can drop in any other unusual operating parameter that you know won't get tested, and get a similar story... For example: high altitude, extreme temperature, overloaded vehicle state, towing, Worn out engine, poor gear selection (manual) etc. Unauthorized owner tampering (EGR disable, DPF delete, Adblue spoof chip etc) also is an issue.

This is my understanding anyway.

Net result is despite dramatically tightening exhaust emissions, air quality worsened in european cities with high diesel penetration (such as paris).

A passive-aggressive stance using poor testing regimes to miss the point of the regulations isn't a defense either, really.

"I did what you told me to do!"

"Did it meet the limits set in the regulations?"

"No....but I did what you told me to do!"

It's a discussion one might have with a 5 year old......not a middle-aged leader of a global automaker.....well, you'd hope.

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Aredwood

3885 posts

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#1704975 18-Jan-2017 01:18

Alot of the problems with diesel engines are to do with the silly emissions rules. Which have required exhaust gas recirculation for ages. But particulate filters are a far more recent addition. EGR lowers combustion temperatures - which is intended. But this means way higher particulate emissions, as the diesel is half smouldering rather than burning properly. The lower combustion temps also mean lower efficiency. (google heat engine efficiency) So you have to press the accelerator pedal more. More fuel usage, more particulate emissions, more carbon emissions.

Yet after all of this. Only 10% of wordwide nitrous oxide emissions come from fossil fuel burning. http://whatsyourimpact.org/greenhouse-gases/nitrous-oxide-emissions Which of course means that even if it were possible to completely eliminate all fossil fuel burning. There would only be a 10% reduction in nitrous oxide emissions. In countries with large cities I can see a localised benefit to reducing nitrous oxide emissions. But in NZ - no benefit. Yet here we are, Emitting far more carbon and particulates - Both of which are really bad for the environment. Yet nitrous oxides are a fertiliser to plants. So we could have both lower carbon emissions, and more plant growth to help remove more of the carbon that is already in the air.

My own experience - Previous employer provided me with a Mitsubishi L300 Van as a company vehicle. It would only get approx 330km out of a tank of diesel. I disabled the EGR on it. Which consisted of pulling a small rubber vacuum hose off the EGR valve and blocking the end of the hose. (a 5 min job) Fuel economy massively improved to around 450Km per tank of diesel. There was less visible black diesel smoke from the exhaust. And the van cruised along better than before. So a massive fuel saving (and therefore a massive carbon emissions saving) on just 1 vehicle.

So this is why I hate nitrous oxide emissions reduction systems. And why I refuse to believe that spewing out way more carbon and particulates is supposedly good for the environment.

And on vehicles with particulate filters. The lower combustion temps due to the EGR means the filters don't often get hot enough to allow the particulates to burn off by themselves. As well as increasing the amount of particulates that need to be filtered out. So unburnt diesel needs to be discharged down the exhaust pipe. So it will then burn in the filter to increase it's temp enough for the particulates to be burnt off. Even more carbon emissions as a result.

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