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tripper1000
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  #2748159 22-Jul-2021 13:52
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My vote looking at the benefits / Disadvantages:

 

Electric for small vehicle/private use.

 

Hydrogen or Bio fuels for commercial (truck, ships, planes)

 

scuwp:

 

Disagree.  Electric engines definitely, but not battery powered. I consider that battery as a fuel source has a 10 - 20 year lifespan max, unless we can resolve issues around charging time, range, precious metals mining, and environmental impacts from production and disposal.  We are already seeing fields of abandoned EV's in some countries and stockpiles of batteries that are an environmental disaster waiting to happen if we don't figure out a sustainable environmental plan from start to finish.        

 

Except this isn't really true and that is classic and long disproven anti EV propaganda, much of which leverages the general publics habit of projecting their ICE experiences/preconceptions onto EV's.

 

1 - ICE only has a design life of 10 years (yes broke kiwi's milk this out a bit longer) so a battery lifespan of 10-20 years is no deterioration. Lithium battery recycling isn't common because the raw feed stock (dead batteries) doesn't yet exist in commercial quantities. The preconception exploited here is that they're not recycled because it to technical/expensive. On the other hand, there are rubbish dumps full of ICE's in excess of commercially practical quantities.

 

2 - precious metals = cobalt is the metal of choice for the nay-sayers and modern batteries (eg Tesla) have dramatically reduced the cobalt needed and are on track to eliminate it entirely (for instance with silicon). Gadgets such as phones and computers are consuming greater volumes of precious metals, such as gold, and will continue to do so due to their shorter life span (3 years vs 10-20 years), and greater prevalence (everyone has multiple gadgets but only 0.25 cars). Lithium isn't "mined" out of holes in the ground contrary to popular propaganda (except for one place in Australia), it is precipitated out of salt water in a similar way to making salt out of salt water, and is very abundant on earth.

 

3 - Within 5 km of you there will be a field full of dead ICE cars and we recycle those just fine. I challenge you to point out this field for of dead EV's in NZ.

 

4 - Charging Time. The preconception is that you have to actively wait for EV's to charge, just like you actively wait for your ICE to full up with gas. In reality, EV is like you phone, you plug it in when you go to bed, and 95% of the time, you don't actually know or care how long it takes to recharge, you only care that it is full in the morning. Also, because recharging is no inconvenience, most EV drivers don't put it off until the "tank" is empty like an ICE - it takes 9.75 seconds to plug it in so they do, even if that battery is still got 40/50/60% left in it. Most EV owners spend a lot less time charging their EV's than they previously spent on petrol station forecourts in the past.

 

5 - Range: Firstly 90% of people travel less than 60km on a daily basis so big range isn't a practical necessity for most people - this plays upon the supposed/projected/entirely theoretical inconvenience of actively waiting for recharging. Secondarily, ranges of over 400 km in EV are pretty common now, which is greater than the range of most peoples bladders and pretty close to ICE, plus EV's continue to improve. You buy a car suitable for the journeys you make every day, and compromise on the once a year journeys, irrespective of fuel type. If we didn't compromise we'd all be driving, flying, amphibious 6X6 buses with a 10 tonne towing capacity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




tdgeek
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  #2748163 22-Jul-2021 14:01
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Rikkitic:

 

Like everyone here, I have an opinion. Like many, my opinion is based on nothing more than the fact that it is my opinion. I have no idea if it is correct, no research data, nothing but just a feeling that it seems to make sense.

 

My opinion is that most 'solutions' seem to be all-or-nothing propositions, with a big load of political correctness thrown in for good measure. The only thing really wrong with fossil fuels is that we use so damned much of them. It is good and necessary that we should be looking for viable alternatives. We should have done that long ago. But once all the uses for which there are better options have been covered, what is left is a small proportion of use cases in which there really is not any good alternative to fossil fuels. Once the total demand has been brought back to manageable levels, there is no reason why oil could not continue to be the best choice for selected special needs. The planet can handle a certain amount of all forms of pollution, just not the enormous quantities currently being dumped on it. So my prediction for the far future is that most, nearly all, energy needs will be met by non-fossil fuel alternatives, but a few will still rely on carefully supervised oil-based products.

 

 

 

 

Well put. Earth does need greenhouses gases, if there were none we could not survive. A quick Google says the average temp would be -18C

 

When we have a large volcanic eruptions they produce mega quantities of pollution, and many more examples. We just need to reduce what we do, so Earth can manage it. Easy to change 4 billion cars to battery, hard to change one A350 to battery, so let them use the greenest FF we can, its not worth it. What we can go part or 100% green do it. Doesn't really need to be head banging

 

But I love the Harry's Garage post above, he nailed it


RobDickinson
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  #2748166 22-Jul-2021 14:03
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We'll not remove our need for oil. 

We to need to massively reduce it. 

We have, today, the tech to replace all our passenger cars, a significant portion of our other road transport, and most of our electricity grid generation.

Take the lower hanging fruit first because we is in a hurry. Just look at the last week around the globe. 




Fred99
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  #2748172 22-Jul-2021 14:12
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Fred99
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  #2748176 22-Jul-2021 14:15
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RobDickinson:
Take the lower hanging fruit first because we is in a hurry. Just look at the last week around the globe. 

 

 

I wonder if many of the "but we've always had weather" crowd are starting to feel a bit less confident about the message they've been pushing.

 

 


mudguard
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  #2748184 22-Jul-2021 14:29
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tripper1000:

 

5 - Range: Firstly 90% of people travel less than 60km on a daily basis so big range isn't a practical necessity for most people - this plays upon the supposed/projected/entirely theoretical inconvenience of actively waiting for recharging. Secondarily, ranges of over 400 km in EV are pretty common now, which is greater than the range of most peoples bladders and pretty close to ICE, plus EV's continue to improve. You buy a car suitable for the journeys you make every day, and compromise on the once a year journeys, irrespective of fuel type. If we didn't compromise we'd all be driving, flying, amphibious 6X6 buses with a 10 tonne towing capacity.

 

 

 

 

Sadly I'm in the 10%, I average 30,000kms for work per year, most trips each week are over 1000kms. I've been watching the EV thing with interest as I get a vehicle salary and per km reimbursement. I have a petrol Corolla and would love to know how much less fuel the hybrid versions could use. My dilemma is the hybrid version had less power but more weight. And I don't do much urban driving. 


 
 
 

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rogercruse
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  #2748185 22-Jul-2021 14:30
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According to my understanding of green agenda, in the future, only travel by donkey will be allowed.... no need for motorways or petrol stations, just make sure you're carrying your donkey when stopped my the energy police!!!!

 

😃


GV27
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  #2748188 22-Jul-2021 14:31
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It's a question of logistics. Kerbside charging for EVs and garage options exist, and will become more common.

 

But for heavy machinery, things that run through depots or long-haul options (trucks/trains), hydrogen will be easier to dispense and more effective.

 

We could waste a lot of time waiting for a very expensive solution to cover all of our use cases, or we can get the ball rolling now and accept that different use cases might need different fueling options. 


RobDickinson
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  #2748190 22-Jul-2021 14:32
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mudguard:

 

Sadly I'm in the 10%, I average 30,000kms for work per year, most trips each week are over 1000kms. I've been watching the EV thing with interest as I get a vehicle salary and per km reimbursement. I have a petrol Corolla and would love to know how much less fuel the hybrid versions could use. My dilemma is the hybrid version had less power but more weight. And I don't do much urban driving. 

 



1000kms a week?

How many on an individual day?

A $60k model 3 would do 350km a day and charge overnight and save you about $120 a week on fuel?


mudguard
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  #2748244 22-Jul-2021 14:37
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RobDickinson:

 

mudguard:

 

Sadly I'm in the 10%, I average 30,000kms for work per year, most trips each week are over 1000kms. I've been watching the EV thing with interest as I get a vehicle salary and per km reimbursement. I have a petrol Corolla and would love to know how much less fuel the hybrid versions could use. My dilemma is the hybrid version had less power but more weight. And I don't do much urban driving. 

 



1000kms a week?

How many on an individual day?

A $60k model 3 would do 350km a day and charge overnight and save you about $120 a week on fuel?

 

 

 

 

Biggest days are just over 500kms. Plus I stay in a different location each night. A few motels and hotels have fast chargers, but it's usually one. Trip just completed was 1300kms in four days.


RobDickinson
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  #2748245 22-Jul-2021 14:40
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mudguard:

 

Biggest days are just over 500kms. Plus I stay in a different location each night. A few motels and hotels have fast chargers, but it's usually one. Trip just completed was 1300kms in four days.

 



ah ok that might be a pain, a kona or LR would be better but still you'd have to stop (assume yuou do somewhat anyhow) check abetterreoutplanner if you want to see how much of a pia it would be


 
 
 
 

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tripper1000
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  #2748267 22-Jul-2021 14:52
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Fred99: I wonder if many of the "but we've always had weather" crowd are starting to feel a bit less confident about the message they've been pushing.

 

Nope. Catastrophizing about the weather is an old game. In the 1950's we have global cooling, in the 1980's fly spray was screwing up the weather and in the 1990's we had global warming. Now we have "change" just to cover all the bases. 800 years ago we had a min ice age (cause still being debated) that lasted hundreds of years. It seemed like a permanent change at the time, but again - nope.

 

Most of the places flooding are either river plans (ie they always flooded in the past) or because humans deforested and/or built obstructions to in the path of the natural flow of water. As soon as you hear "...the river overflowed the stop banks" a sensible person knows that humans tried and failed to alter the historical and natural flow of the river. Little to nothing to do with climate change - sorry.

 

Regarding the fires in the USA, they're burning due to the worst drought in 129 years, meaning there was an equal or worse drought 130 years ago. Droughts happened before human were on the scene and also happened when there was both more and less green house gas in the atmosphere. A 129 year drought occurring frequently is something to worry about, but a 129 year drought occurring every 129 years is just nature. 

 

Reality is that in the last 8,000 years (which is the extent of recorded human history and therefore our "normal") ocean levels and climate have been abnormally stable. Changing climate and ocean levels is actually a return to what is normal for the earth, it just isn't normal for humans. We know humans migrated to North America and Australia via land bridges, so don't tell me ocean level change is a new thing.


Fred99
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  #2748272 22-Jul-2021 15:03
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It's getting much harder to cherry pick data - LOL.  But nice try.


Dingbatt
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  #2748278 22-Jul-2021 15:11
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rogercruse:

 

According to my understanding of green agenda, in the future, only travel by donkey will be allowed.... no need for motorways or petrol stations, just make sure you're carrying your donkey when stopped my the energy police!!!!

 

😃

 

 

I think a donkey would be considered a danger to the planet because, as a ruminant animal, it will produce methane. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the medieval warm period referenced earlier in the thread wasn’t caused by the proliferation of larger four leg drive beasts of burden.

 

😁





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


tdgeek
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  #2748347 22-Jul-2021 17:38
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https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2021/07/photos-china-launches-new-maglev-train-that-travels-at-record-breaking-600km-h.html

 

This is an option to remove some flights, and replace the power usage with green energy


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