Road surfaces: do they contribute to our high accident rate?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Road surfaces: do they contribute to our high accident rate?

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#2815703 19-Nov-2021 13:16

Geektastic: Since I bought my Can Am Spyder, I've become intimately acquainted with the poor quality of many of our road surfaces. It's something that is far more noticeable from a bike/trike than it is cocooned in a car. .

Welcome to life on less than three wheels. Yes makes a huge difference for bikes.

Apart from the worst cases cars are a different story. Anytime a corner is fixed you soon find idiots ramping the speed even more because now they can. Design can and does sometimes compensate for this effect imo.

Reducing fuel consumption and tyre wear has benefits too.

1024kb

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#2815712 19-Nov-2021 13:36

There was once a decision made as to whether NZ went with asphalt roads or concrete. We got it wrong.

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scuwp

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#2815720 19-Nov-2021 13:57

1024kb: There was once a decision made as to whether NZ went with asphalt roads or concrete. We got it wrong.

No, we got it right. Concrete is not suitable for a large chunk of our roading network because of the land, and it costs an absolute fortune.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

Wellingtondave

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#2815778 19-Nov-2021 15:48

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-composition/road-surfacing/

"Chipseal is used to: improve road safety by improving surface grip, and therefore reducing the length it takes to stop when braking in an emergency and providing greater texture, which prevents vehicles aqua-planing"

http://www.kiwirap.org.nz/results_star.html

From the mouth of the horse I think is the expression. Generally the surface is not an issue, if maintained reasonably well. It's the things the crashing thing will hit or end up in (power poles, flooded ditches etc).

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#2815789 19-Nov-2021 16:32

Wellingtondave:

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-composition/road-surfacing/

"Chipseal is used to: improve road safety by improving surface grip, and therefore reducing the length it takes to stop when braking in an emergency and providing greater texture, which prevents vehicles aqua-planing"

http://www.kiwirap.org.nz/results_star.html

From the mouth of the horse I think is the expression. Generally the surface is not an issue, if maintained reasonably well. It's the things the crashing thing will hit or end up in (power poles, flooded ditches etc).

And there's your problem. Generally in NZ, the surface is not laid well and is then poorly maintained.

Using the Kapiti expressway as an example, how long after opening do we think before Transmission Gully will see resealing required?

Geektastic

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#2815792 19-Nov-2021 16:43

We will also ignore all the paint damage and broken glass that chipseal causes plus the fact that - uniquely - the organisations responsible for putting it there seem to be able to avoid legal claims for damage as a result.

tripper1000

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#2815814 19-Nov-2021 17:50

Wellingtondave:

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-composition/road-surfacing/

"Chipseal is used to: improve road safety by improving surface grip, and therefore reducing the length it takes to stop when braking in an emergency and providing greater texture, which prevents vehicles aqua-planing"

http://www.kiwirap.org.nz/results_star.html From the mouth of the horse I think is the expression. Generally the surface is not an issue, if maintained reasonably well. It's the things the crashing thing will hit or end up in (power poles, flooded ditches etc).

That is the biggest load of horse manure. Yes, it is the touted reason, but if you look at following years budgets it is plainly false.

Chip seal deteriorate faster that any other surface (besides gravel) - it becomes unsafe fastest of all seals! It is like heroin - once you start using it, you can't stop. Once the initial high is worn off, you need more just to get back to what used to be normal.

Chip seal has only been in vogue since councils checked out of road management and contracted it Fulton Hogan etc, making the poacher the game keeper. If the contractor has a little cash left in the budget, they chuck down some chip seal here and there, and assure themselves of recurring future business renewing it every 2-3 years.

The initial application seems like a cheap fix, but it becomes expensive renewing it every 2-3 years, and excessively expensive as the surface of the road gets higher and man-holes have to be dug-up and elevated or the road has to be milled back down to original levels.

Chip seal fails to take into account total cost of ownership and is false economy.

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Batman

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#2815874 19-Nov-2021 18:38

i'm not sure about safe or unsafe but they sure annoy the heck out of me because it's so loud!

driller2000

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#2815879 19-Nov-2021 19:00

Short Answer: Yes

Longer Answer: Loads of research / papers reports etc on this as evidenced by this simple search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=road+surface+contribution+to+road+safety&oq=road+surface+contribution+to+road+safety&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.10072j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Real Answer: MONEY.

fearandloathing

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#2815892 19-Nov-2021 20:02

Does the Spyder come with tyres spec'd for NZ roads, or does it ship with the tyres spec'd for US roads?

Handle9

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#2815895 19-Nov-2021 20:14

Geektastic:
We will also ignore all the paint damage and broken glass that chipseal causes plus the fact that - uniquely - the organisations responsible for putting it there seem to be able to avoid legal claims for damage as a result.

The road surface does not cause the damage, the vehicles travelling over that surface do. You are always welcome to pursue those concerned for damages.

CruciasNZ

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#2815952 19-Nov-2021 21:08

Geektastic: I'm not simply talking of the actual materials used although there's a big difference between a nice section of hot roll macadam and a manky bit of cheap chipseal. I'm really speaking of the poor construction - undulating surfaces, bad cambers, wear grooves, holes etc.

I'm sure that this poor quality makes life more dangerous for those on bikes of all types and in more than a few cases for car drivers as well.

As we approach another holiday period where we will be graced with the daily cumulative "road toll" I wonder to myself that if our roads cause such a toll why are we not doing much about them?

Most of the risk to road users comes from drivers doing stupid things, but road shape (in terms of consistent surface shape and alignment) is also a major contributor. A lot of our roads in New Zealand don't meet all of the applicable geometric design standards (e.g. sight distance, radius of curves etc.) as the rules are for modern operating speeds and the roads were built a long time ago. Unfortunately fixing this can be horrendously expensive so often we use other things to mitigate this risk (e.g. speed limits, double yellow lines, curve advisory signs, different surfacing types etc.).

We've also got a problem where a lot of our roads have performed alright over the last 50-100 years despite being under-spec (because of when and how they were built), but many factors (e.g. climate change, faster vehicles, heavier and gruntier trucks, etc.) are accelerating deterioration of our roads. This is exasperated by road controlling authorities under-funding maintenance, and now they can't keep up with deterioration on some stretches of the network. The price of bitumen has also shot up substantially, and the Marsden Point Refinery stopped making it last year so now we have to import all of the bitumen we use for surfacing, which is making road maintenance more and more expensive at a time when the treatments needed are getting more substantial to account for the changes in network usage.

Genuine shonky workmanship does occur, and affects everything from the humble maintenance patches all the way up massive projects like Transmission Gulley and other RONZ projects.

So yeah, the state of our roads contributes to the road toll and substantially more investment needs to be directed to the maintenance and improvement of them. Personally I'd like to see them stop building flash new motorways and bus bridges for half a decade and direct all of that capital upgrade funding into maintenance as a national "fix it up" initiative.

Geektastic: Why not? Just close or restrict the road in the middle of the night and do it then?

Sadly the road controlling authorities (Councils and Waka Kotahi) are very resistant to road closures, though I am hopeful with the review of COPTTM (Code of Practice for Temporary Traffic Management) and the recent changes to the Health & Safety Act (i.e. cost is no longer considered legal defense to violating safety) that we'll be allowed to do more road closures. Freight companies will pack a fit about closures, but if they're communicated months in advance (as most maintenance is on the forward works program at least six months before it occurs) then they should be able to plan around it. Emergency events play by different rules, so road closures due are more usually triggered by something going horribly wrong.

As for detours, they can be really challenging in New Zealand because many parts of our road network don't have detour routes available or the routes are not strong enough to take the loadings (which is why the inland detour route fell to bits after the Kaikoura quake).

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Benoire

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#2815954 19-Nov-2021 21:15

There is also a funding challenge with respect to the National Land Transport Fund. Unfortunately a series of choices made by Waka Kotahi have resulted in their PPPs going over cost and sucking the money out of the NLTF along with reduced revenue from Covid 19 and the slow increase in EVs. This has ensured that authorities such as Auckland Transport are not getting the funding they actually need to maintain the network. The reason why we appear to be able to still spend ~$800m per annum on capital works (i.e. new stuff) is that is loan funded over a 40y period where as maintenance comes from rates and a top up from WK and this has been substantially reduced for AT at least leading to less money. C19 lockdowns has somewhat helped due to less traffic on the road in Auckland but we're now playing catchup and will burn through the cash fast... the rest of NZ is somewhat worse off though due to lower population levels and therefore a lower rate base to draw from.

Geektastic

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#2816782 21-Nov-2021 21:13

fearandloathing:

Does the Spyder come with tyres spec'd for NZ roads, or does it ship with the tyres spec'd for US roads?

It ships with the only tyres in the world specifically made for it I believe.

When it was being developed, they approached a variety of tyre makers because Bosch - who created the advanced electronic stability system the Spyder has - wanted known values for the friction coefficient of the tyres. Can Am asked a number of tyre companies to come to the party but only Kenda said that they would.

Geektastic

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#2816784 21-Nov-2021 21:18

CruciasNZ:

[Most of the risk to road users comes from drivers doing stupid things, but road shape (in terms of consistent surface shape and alignment) is also a major contributor. A lot of our roads in New Zealand don't meet all of the applicable geometric design standards (e.g. sight distance, radius of curves etc.) as the rules are for modern operating speeds and the roads were built a long time ago. Unfortunately fixing this can be horrendously expensive so often we use other things to mitigate this risk (e.g. speed limits, double yellow lines, curve advisory signs, different surfacing types etc.).

We've also got a problem where a lot of our roads have performed alright over the last 50-100 years despite being under-spec (because of when and how they were built), but many factors (e.g. climate change, faster vehicles, heavier and gruntier trucks, etc.) are accelerating deterioration of our roads. This is exasperated by road controlling authorities under-funding maintenance, and now they can't keep up with deterioration on some stretches of the network. The price of bitumen has also shot up substantially, and the Marsden Point Refinery stopped making it last year so now we have to import all of the bitumen we use for surfacing, which is making road maintenance more and more expensive at a time when the treatments needed are getting more substantial to account for the changes in network usage.

Genuine shonky workmanship does occur, and affects everything from the humble maintenance patches all the way up massive projects like Transmission Gulley and other RONZ projects.

So yeah, the state of our roads contributes to the road toll and substantially more investment needs to be directed to the maintenance and improvement of them. Personally I'd like to see them stop building flash new motorways and bus bridges for half a decade and direct all of that capital upgrade funding into maintenance as a national "fix it up" initiative.

Geektastic: Why not? Just close or restrict the road in the middle of the night and do it then?

Sadly the road controlling authorities (Councils and Waka Kotahi) are very resistant to road closures, though I am hopeful with the review of COPTTM (Code of Practice for Temporary Traffic Management) and the recent changes to the Health & Safety Act (i.e. cost is no longer considered legal defense to violating safety) that we'll be allowed to do more road closures. Freight companies will pack a fit about closures, but if they're communicated months in advance (as most maintenance is on the forward works program at least six months before it occurs) then they should be able to plan around it. Emergency events play by different rules, so road closures due are more usually triggered by something going horribly wrong.

As for detours, they can be really challenging in New Zealand because many parts of our road network don't have detour routes available or the routes are not strong enough to take the loadings (which is why the inland detour route fell to bits after the Kaikoura quake).

Thank you for that eminently sensible and detailed response. I am glad that road closure will become more common. The other thing that would be very useful is to start working 24/7 to considerably shorten the length of time the repairs take.

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