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Geektastic

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#290548 19-Nov-2021 07:56
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Since I bought my Can Am Spyder, I've become intimately acquainted with the poor quality of many of our road surfaces. It's something that is far more noticeable from a bike/trike than it is cocooned in a car.

I'm not simply talking of the actual materials used although there's a big difference between a nice section of hot roll macadam and a manky bit of cheap chipseal. I'm really speaking of the poor construction - undulating surfaces, bad cambers, wear grooves, holes etc.

I'm sure that this poor quality makes life more dangerous for those on bikes of all types and in more than a few cases for car drivers as well.

As we approach another holiday period where we will be graced with the daily cumulative "road toll" I wonder to myself that if our roads cause such a toll why are we not doing much about them?

A few deaths from Covid and we suspend billion dollar industries and spend billions more on health and financial responses. We get ten times as many deaths on average per year on the road than we have had from Covid since it began.

It's interesting the differing resources put into each.





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thewabbit
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  #2815526 19-Nov-2021 08:26
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Off camber corners and bad crossfall are definitely looked at when it comes to road safety and likelihood of crashes on corners. Problem often comes down to actually having sufficient data to calculate and measure the cross fall.

 

You can't exactly get someone out there with survey equipment to get a detailed cross section of a blind corner on the open road




Geektastic

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  #2815527 19-Nov-2021 08:29
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thewabbit:

Off camber corners and bad crossfall are definitely looked at when it comes to road safety and likelihood of crashes on corners. Problem often comes down to actually having sufficient data to calculate and measure the cross fall.


You can't exactly get someone out there with survey equipment to get a detailed cross section of a blind corner on the open road



Why not? Just close or restrict the road in the middle of the night and do it then?





RobDickinson
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  #2815533 19-Nov-2021 08:37
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Absolutely they do.

 

 

 

But NZ is a country of 5million people with a lot of road per person, the spend required to make our roads perfect just isnt available. 




Bung
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  #2815537 19-Nov-2021 08:46
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Why not, the Police serious crash unit seem to have no problem closing State Highways down for hours while they investigate.

The roads are what they are. There aren't many places where the conditions change so quickly that a driver could say that they couldn't have anticipated what could happen. Some drivers are determined to be their own worst enemy, their version of anti vax is driving without seatbelt while texting. Apparently during lockdown the empty roads encouraged high speed and drunk driving.

tieke
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  #2815542 19-Nov-2021 08:50
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Geektastic: A few deaths from Covid and we suspend billion dollar industries and spend billions more on health and financial responses. We get ten times as many deaths on average per year on the road than we have had from Covid since it began.

It's interesting the differing resources put into each.

 

Just a note about this, as I've seen something similar a few times from different people, vis "Only a few people died of covid in NZ, why don't we spend more on [this cause of death] instead".

 

The reason the government put so much resources into the anti-covid work is because initial modelling showed that if they had done nothing, around 300,000 New Zealanders would have needed hospitalisation and 30,000 would have died - if road camber alterations were to have a similar effect, I assume similar resources would be used.

 

The fact that a relatively small number in New Zealand have died from covid so far is a validation of the resources spent rather than a strike against it :)


thewabbit
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  #2815544 19-Nov-2021 08:51
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Geektastic:
thewabbit:

 

Off camber corners and bad crossfall are definitely looked at when it comes to road safety and likelihood of crashes on corners. Problem often comes down to actually having sufficient data to calculate and measure the cross fall.

 

 

 

You can't exactly get someone out there with survey equipment to get a detailed cross section of a blind corner on the open road

 



Why not? Just close or restrict the road in the middle of the night and do it then?

 

 

 

 

 

Trucks - have fun telling the trucking companies that SH1 will be closed overnight. Can't restrict the road as crossfall affects the whole surface not just one lane. It also changes across the corner, at the apex, the cross fall needs to be greater than at the corner entries.

 

 

 

What is done however is this: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-composition/pavement-condition-surveys/

 

 

 

But having seen and worked with the data from this, its sufficient for a network level, but the granularity of the data and the fact that you only get two data points (one per lane) doesn't allow you to get great accuracy


Geektastic

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  #2815560 19-Nov-2021 09:20
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tieke:

Geektastic: A few deaths from Covid and we suspend billion dollar industries and spend billions more on health and financial responses. We get ten times as many deaths on average per year on the road than we have had from Covid since it began.

It's interesting the differing resources put into each.


Just a note about this, as I've seen something similar a few times from different people, vis "Only a few people died of covid in NZ, why don't we spend more on [this cause of death] instead".


The reason the government put so much resources into the anti-covid work is because initial modelling showed that if they had done nothing, around 300,000 New Zealanders would have needed hospitalisation and 30,000 would have died - if road camber alterations were to have a similar effect, I assume similar resources would be used.


The fact that a relatively small number in New Zealand have died from covid so far is a validation of the resources spent rather than a strike against it :)



Is it not also true of roads? If we put more resources into them, those 350-400 people a year ago die may reduce considerably.





 
 
 

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Batman
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  #2815565 19-Nov-2021 09:29
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No I don't think so. It's old cars with poor active and passive safety, poorly maintained cars with worn everything, arrogant drivers/poorly trained,

AND road conditions - windy and narrow, poor surface, sunstrike.

But without the driving habits the road conditions are not enough. The other day I had all sorts of cars coming at me in my lane (crossed centre line) in corners. They want to go fast but can't stay in their lane. I had to swerve to avoid collision a few times. I don't drive that often so that helps me a bit.

  #2815573 19-Nov-2021 09:39
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Do they contribute to our high accident rate  -  Yes

 

 

 

Why isn't anything done about  -  Because its costly, and its easier to just blame speed


1101
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  #2815603 19-Nov-2021 10:18
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Please, lets stop blaming roads
Its the drivers . Its the drivers . Its allways the drivers.

 

We can somehow race rally cars at over 100mph on our very worst unsealed roads , yet we still want to blame roads for accidents ?

 

 


elpenguino
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  #2815604 19-Nov-2021 10:21
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Let's differentiate between surface conditions that affect comfort and those that affect safety.

 

From what I've seen, NZTA operates a data driven model - roads with higher crash statistics are upgraded before those that are a bit bumpy.

 

I am guessing, @Geektastic, that before your canam arrived, you were not previously a motorcyclist. I think a lot of what you're detecting is 'par for the course' as far as short wheelbase vehicles with semi-sporting suspension goes. IIRC your canam does have wider tyres which should help a little bit. Once you get off the urban motorways, the comfort level for motorcyclists drops off rapidly.

 

You could experiment with tyre pressures. A small change might change comfort levels quite a bit.

 

Motorcyclists have to be good at analysing the road surface as they ride - they can't just plough through and over everything like a car driver. I suspect you'll get better at picking your lines as you build experience.

 

The problem for you is you have a central wheel so it's harder to successfully steer around a pothole than it is for both a car and a bike.





Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21


KiwiME
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  #2815611 19-Nov-2021 10:37
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I think the road surface condition has little to do with causing accidents.  The condition of SH5 Napier-Taupo road often gets blamed by the FB experts despite being very acceptable in my view.  The problem is more about speed and inattention raising the likelihood of complex situations occurring that overtax whatever abilities the driver and those nearby have. 

 

The accident between the orchard worker's van and a tanker truck at Tarawera is a good example.  The van driver was insufficiently trained to manage the risk of turning in front of a truck whose driver had insufficient time to stop, even if he or she had time to anticipate the potential outcomes.

 

Mostly what I see are a significant percent of drivers on that road who drive at speeds that leave little room for error on anyone's part. 

 

 


afe66
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  #2815618 19-Nov-2021 10:49
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Blaming road surface is a convenient excuse for the fact we are crap drivers in nz...

Sure there will be cases but road in nz are probably good enough.

Much bigger problem is the person controlling the vehicle. Just look at how many people are driving around on their cell phones or people driving up my backsides the open road.

Never met a nz driver who didn't describe themselves as an above average driver.

MikeB4
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  #2815628 19-Nov-2021 11:08
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Everyone wants the best roads in world and we could have the best roads in the world but no one wants to pay for them. If the road user charges or fuel tax were increased to meet the cost the wailing would be audible on the ISS. The simple solution to a situation we don't have the resources to fix is to drive to the conditions not the sign post.  


tehgerbil
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  #2815674 19-Nov-2021 12:35
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To answer your question, no. The specific road surfaces are not a leading factor in crashes.

[Source]
https://figure.nz/chart/WKssPR8hbahvO8Cx-uRVBYHXQjMLE18H4

However I do agree that the roads are appallingly under maintained and cheaply implemented.

A case and point would be Roydvale avenue in Christchurch.

Repaired a year or so ago, and has a new pothole or three every single time it rains, starting mere weeks after it was laid. 


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