Discussion paper and call for comments

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Discussion paper and call for comments - RUCs

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338 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2860906 3-Feb-2022 01:11

I could easily be wrong on this, but I've always believed that the greater part of our petrol tax is absorbed into the 'General Fund' - from which a small part is applied to roads; a probably-equal amount is siphoned off to pay for railways, ferries, etc; and the greater amount goes to general Government wonderfullness.

On the back of an envelope...
If 2 M kiwis drive 12 K and burn 8 L per 100K, that's 2 B L per year.
It looks like the actual retail cost of petrol is about 0.70-90 $NZ/L.
So that should give the NZ Government 4 billion dollars a year - from private road users.
Plus $$$ from commercial road users, which I've heard is about equal.
So, my best guess is 8 B $NZ income.

On top of that we have registrations - which may, hopefully, raise more $$ than the bureaucracy set up to collect them.

Also tolls - ditto.

Also fines and infringements - which may go some way to paying for enforcement.

Looking at the formal NZG 2021 Budget document, it looks like 2 B $ for all Transport expenditure - but the whole document is mired in 'Wellbeing Strategy' and is structured so that only Woke activity seems to be allocated any money - anything as disgusting as roads is as deeply buried as possible. Above my pay grade...

Anyone found any believable numbers on the subject of income from & expenditure on behalf of the Kiwi motorist ?

insane

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#2860907 3-Feb-2022 01:53

SaltyNZ:
Note that they're also looking for ideas to make the practical application of RUCs less of a pain both for themselves and for the public. So if you've got any suggestions, send them in.

I'm sure the likes of EROAD would love to see an ehubo installed on every vehicle in NZ. You do have to wonder whether much of that capability could just be replicated by car manufacturers though, given a large part of their expanding value proposition revolves around tapping into engine telemetry and early warning of issues.

Of course you have to deal with that little issue of the govt essentially having a tracker on your movements which may not be constitutional/legal. Although presumably with many cars now having sim cards etc in them for emergencies it could already be the case..

mudguard

2113 posts

Uber Geek

#2860920 3-Feb-2022 06:28

pdh:

> You cannot pay for your vehicle licence renewal unless it has a current WOF.

This may be true in theory - or for some classes of vehicle - but I re-registered my trailer recently and it certainly didn't have a current WOF.

It's likely you can only do that once. I bought a registration for my project car. It had been on hold and had no WOF, but it obviously sets a clock ticking. As when I went to renew the rego again (perhaps optimistic said project car would be on the road) it wouldn't let me renew.

Having said that, during the last lockdown they must have allowed it temporarily. I'd picked up new tyres for it and they said you could renew with an expired WOF due to lockdown. So I went home and renewed it for a year. Which meant I could finally insure it too!

End threadjack.

NB I don't know about the over/under suggestion someone made for RUCS. New cars don't have WOFS very often, I'd hate to get my bill after three years and 120,000kms!!

SaltyNZ

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#2860931 3-Feb-2022 07:46

insane:
SaltyNZ:

Note that they're also looking for ideas to make the practical application of RUCs less of a pain both for themselves and for the public. So if you've got any suggestions, send them in.

I'm sure the likes of EROAD would love to see an ehubo installed on every vehicle in NZ. You do have to wonder whether much of that capability could just be replicated by car manufacturers though, given a large part of their expanding value proposition revolves around tapping into engine telemetry and early warning of issues.

Of course you have to deal with that little issue of the govt essentially having a tracker on your movements which may not be constitutional/legal. Although presumably with many cars now having sim cards etc in them for emergencies it could already be the case..

Privacy issues are explicitly mentioned as something they want to discuss in relation to any automatic RUC system. They also mention the current legislative bar on police or other law enforcement from using eRUC data (it's used on some heavy vehicles) for any other purpose than collection of RUCs.

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Dingbatt

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#2860952 3-Feb-2022 08:49

Any vehicles that have some sort of cloud telemetry would just need a software update to report odometer readings. Another ‘service’ that could be offered by manufacturers/dealers, reminding customers to buy some kms (for a fee of course).

I guess it’s karma. I sit in traffic in my hybrid using only half as much fuel as similar size vehicles around me thinking “at least I’m only paying half as much to be on the road as these other suckers” (bearing in mind if I was in an EV I’d be paying nothing at the moment).

Because of the ++ reasons laid out in the consultation (climate, noise, etc) I don’t believe the fuel excise will be completely replaced by RUCs on petrol and electric vehicles. So we will end up paying more because of user pays and polluter pays aren’t the same thing.

At least it may be cheaper to run our boat.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

RobDickinson

1524 posts

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#2860953 3-Feb-2022 08:53

RUC on everything with a more modern way to check/pay for it

+

An actual honest carbon pricing on fossil fuels unlike the joke we have now.

MikeAqua

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#2861067 3-Feb-2022 09:48

Personally I think: -

- All tax except GST and carbon tax should be removed from petrol.

- RUC should be applied to all vehicles.

- There should be smaller weight classes with lower rates.

I think if that happened, someone like e-road would move into the private vehicle market, which removes the admin headache of RUC (and vehicle licensing).

Mike

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MikeAqua

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#2861073 3-Feb-2022 09:50

Dingbatt:

Any vehicles that have some sort of cloud telemetry would just need a software update to report odometer readings. Another ‘service’ that could be offered by manufacturers/dealers, reminding customers to buy some kms (for a fee of course).

Already exists for commercial vehicles. eroad.co.nz

Mike

Dingbatt

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#2861143 3-Feb-2022 10:37

MikeAqua:

Dingbatt:

Any vehicles that have some sort of cloud telemetry would just need a software update to report odometer readings. Another ‘service’ that could be offered by manufacturers/dealers, reminding customers to buy some kms (for a fee of course).

Already exists for commercial vehicles. eroad.co.nz

Isn't that extra equipment though? If the system already exists in (admittedly more expensive) vehicles, then incentivising dealers to activate it and get another revenue stream may help its adoption.

May need some sort of “Driving for families” government support when RUCs and a Climate Change tax are applied to motoring and the true cost is shared equally on a “User and Abuser Pays” basis.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Mattnzl

281 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2861144 3-Feb-2022 10:37

RobDickinson:

RUC on everything with a more modern way to check/pay for it

The "More Modern way to check it" will be absolutely key.

Currently old Japanese diesels are extremely popular - partly because they have no or basic engine management systems which means they run fine with the speedo disconnected.

Which = very cheap motoring (at the expense of the rest of us).

SaltyNZ

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#2861149 3-Feb-2022 10:43

Mattnzl:

The "More Modern way to check it" will be absolutely key.

Currently old Japanese diesels are extremely popular - partly because they have no or basic engine management systems which means they run fine with the speedo disconnected.

Which = very cheap motoring (at the expense of the rest of us).

One of the proposals is to make it mandatory for inspectors to report evidence of tampering. It should be pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain when the vehicle comes in for inspection that it is clearly being driven regularly, but the odometer reads the same as last year... Now presumably the people doing this have their own mates doing the WOF: such a requirement would put them doubly at risk. It won't eliminate the issue but it will make it riskier. Also note they are asking for comments around penalties including changes to the structure, offences, and maximum penalties for individuals and bodies corporate.

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tchart

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#2861150 3-Feb-2022 10:43

Scott3:

That said, don't fill out the below and they send it to you?

Yes but (as a diesel owner) I think this is a bit stupid. The whole thing should be electronic and checked when you get a WOF etc.

SaltyNZ

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2degrees

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#2861151 3-Feb-2022 10:46

Dingbatt:

Isn't that extra equipment though? If the system already exists in (admittedly more expensive) vehicles, then incentivising dealers to activate it and get another revenue stream may help its adoption.

May need some sort of “Driving for families” government support when RUCs and a Climate Change tax are applied to motoring and the true cost is shared equally on a “User and Abuser Pays” basis.

You can phase it in over time. Make it mandatory for all new or used imported cars to have it built-in or installed at the time of registration from <some future date>. Grandfather existing vehicles that don't have it, but maybe provide an incentive to get it by giving X km free RUC if you have it retrofitted and activated.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

Dingbatt

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#2861176 3-Feb-2022 11:21

SaltyNZ:

You can phase it in over time. Make it mandatory for all new or used imported cars to have it built-in or installed at the time of registration from <some future date>. Grandfather existing vehicles that don't have it, but maybe provide an incentive to get it by giving X km free RUC if you have it retrofitted and activated.

( TF hat on) Of course, what we need is more regulation and enforcement. It’s only a matter of time before your resource/carbon budget is added to your social credit score. (TF hat off).

Unless Japan has some sort of mandatory requirement for this type of thing, it’s not going to be “built-in” on many used imports. So that means installed on arrival. A cost which will be passed on to the customer. A family working multiple jobs just make ends meet, that can hardly even afford to buy the people mover they need, will find it even more difficult.

If NZ makes it too onerous for manufacturers we may face the situation where they just go “Yeah, Nah”. Some will say good riddance, but in the end it is the least privileged that will suffer most.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

RobDickinson

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#2861183 3-Feb-2022 11:32

The whole world will be facing similar questions over road usage and taxation, we are not unique in this, in some respects we're ahead of the game.

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