EVs, Hybrids, PHEV - what to do?!

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61 posts

Master Geek

#3002632 28-Nov-2022 14:05

Some great points made by Geekzoners here.

I just want to also add how long you are looking to keep new car. With PHEV battery degradation maybe an issue which will affect future value.

gzt

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#3002640 28-Nov-2022 14:29

The thing with Hybrids is more can go wrong - you've got a high voltage system combined with a petrol engine that requires more servicing

My experience with Toyota hybrids is less servicing than standard petrol vehicle. Two main reasons imo, 1. Regenerative braking is less stress on the running gear. 2. Predominantly electric takeoff is less stress on running gear.

In my case no CV replacement or even brakepad replacement after 80,000km of ownership and probably none for the previous 80,000km in japan either. Serviced by dealer in case your're wondering. It really is hard to believe, yet many owners have similar experience.

Completely agree hybrid does not suit everyone for many different reasons.

MikeB4

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#3002661 28-Nov-2022 15:27

riztricted:

Some great points made by Geekzoners here.

I just want to also add how long you are looking to keep new car. With PHEV battery degradation maybe an issue which will affect future value.

From my position this is not an issue as we trade our vehicles before the expiry of the vehicle warranty.

Dingbatt

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#3002741 28-Nov-2022 17:03

@ZombieJohn

With the budget you proposed in the OP, there just aren’t any worthwhile EVs on the used market that will fulfill your requirements, not without serious compromise anyway. The ‘affordable’, worthwhile, used EVs are probably three years of depreciation away in the case of the MG or BYD, or five years for M3/Y, EV6, Niro, Ioniq5, Kona, etc. Towbars on a lot of EVs are for mounting a bike rack on. New EVs are still a compromise purchase. Either through what you get for what you pay, or how you must operate them.

I have looked recently at HEVs and PHEVs with a view to replacing my wife’s petrol Ford Focus, as well as the Niro, Kona, BYD Atto3 and MG ZS EVs. Our next move will probably be PHEV because for day to day running around the city the electric range will suffice and longer journeys can be done without “route planning”. We have a 2 car garage with plenty of powerpoints, so no excuse to not plug in each night. However, we are fortunate in being able to buy new, something that is beyond many kiwis. I’m probably old fashioned, but I won’t borrow money to get a depreciating asset*.
As a previous owner of a Toyota Hybrid, I have no qualms in recommending them, as long as you recognise all their motive power comes from the fuel tank (ie no plug in). They just use that fuel quite efficiently. The way the Hybrid Synergy Drive system works in a Toyota is no more complicated or failure prone than many 6, 8 or 10 speed electronically controlled automatic gearboxes in modern vehicles. I spoke to a Taxi driver who had just replaced his hybrid battery after 500,000km. He said even with a fuel card discount, the savings running a hybrid covered the battery replacement cost many times over. Unless you are a boy racer or want to tow something really heavy, hybrids are not “gutless”.

* Note: I enjoy driving my Tesla Model 3, but I didn’t buy it to save money or the planet. I bought it for the enjoyment of driving it and I could afford it.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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Master Geek

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#3002751 28-Nov-2022 17:36

Ecotricity's CEO Al Yates makes a good point on RNZ's Nine to Noon that petrol and diesel cars will be worth pretty much nothing in a few years to come. The audio clip is on this page:

Ecotricity answers the big EV questions

Inphinity

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#3002763 28-Nov-2022 19:13

We are looking at PHEV options, if our thinking helps with your own.

Why PHEV?

Most of our daily travel could be done on pure EV mode.

We have too many use cases of traveling outside of main city areas, where EV-only range and charging options (especially fast-charge) are not necessarily readily available or predictable (e.g. rural Northland and Waikato).

Non-Plugin hybrids don't seem to provide the level of fuel efficiency or benefit to justify their cost over and above an ICE-only engine, in my view. An example, the Subaru Forester e-Boxer is rated at 6.7L/100km, compared to the 7.4L/100km of the pure ICE-based version (which also produces significantly more power & torque and is, overall, far more drivable), but at a $5k premium (looking at base models - aware the difference decreases for the Premium spec). Similar with other ICE vs Hybrids I've looked at, e.g. Kia Sorento 6L/100km vs 7.1L/100km, but again notable reduction in power/torque. At current fuel prices (yes, I know they're probably going to keep going up) it's something crazy like 8 - 10 year payoff, compared to the PHEV which, given our typical use, is more like a 3 - 5 year payoff. Assuming buying new, we'd be expecting a ~7 year life out of the vehicle for us.

So, it's either stick with ICE - which has a shrinking life span - or move to PHEV. If only there were more fun PHEV options available...

Batman

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#3002770 28-Nov-2022 19:52

Kia Niro

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Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

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#3002786 28-Nov-2022 20:00

Newtown:

Ecotricity's CEO Al Yates makes a good point on RNZ's Nine to Noon that petrol and diesel cars will be worth pretty much nothing in a few years to come. The audio clip is on this page:

Ecotricity answers the big EV questions

depends on the model.

a Nissan Skyline just sold for over a million dollars the other day.

also if you can buy a petrol car for nothing or buy an EV for $70,000, then I'd buy the petrol car for sure.

michaelmurfy

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#3002889 28-Nov-2022 23:26

Dingbatt:

Our next move will probably be PHEV because for day to day running around the city the electric range will suffice and longer journeys can be done without “route planning”.

I spoke to a Taxi driver who had just replaced his hybrid battery after 500,000km. He said even with a fuel card discount, the savings running a hybrid covered the battery replacement cost many times over.

There are a few parts of your post that make little sense. As you know with a Tesla there isn't much route planning needed at all - nothing really more than a standard petrol car as with a petrol car you've still got to "route" to a petrol station to fuel up and by the time you've gone to the toilet, grabbed a snack / drink or even gone for a short stretch you've spent nearly as much time as an average charge session anyway. Charging infrastructure is also getting much better with both faster chargers, and more of them.

For your second point with the Taxi driver the part you didn't mention was the fact there is also more maintenance needed. I've also spoken to a number of taxi drivers who have mentioned they actually go for a service multiple times per year which does add up cost wise so when you account for that then sure it may be cheaper than a pure petrol car in terms of running it but it is basically equal with maintenance regardless + you've got another system that can go wrong too.

Lastly:

Towbars on a lot of EVs are for mounting a bike rack on.

is just fully incorrect. EV's can actually tow really well and I dare you to say that statement to the NZ EV Owners Towbar Adventures group who will just prove you wrong. Sure like any car there are towing limits but you'll be very, very surprised with what even a Nissan Leaf can tow.

Right now, like I say I am bias but for the good majority of people I actually wouldn't be recommending any ICE cars anymore given the writing is on the wall for them. If you can extend your budget and also add in average fuel costs (plus the likelihood fuel costs are just going to rise) along with maintenance buying an EV even if it costs more is not at all a stupid idea. If you put the money you're saving in fuel into paying off the loan quicker you can have a brand new car that is a joy to drive and no real ongoing costs past that loan apart from power (and RUC's in the future which is rumored to be cheap too).

If you're on the fence with buying an EV then just take some out for a test drive. If it isn't for you then so be it (but you can say you've tried), but almost everyone who was looking for a good car who I've said that statement to now own EV's and wouldn't go back.

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Dingbatt

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#3002900 29-Nov-2022 07:00

And yet, even the Owners Manual of your own Tesla Model 3 has the following warning and caution*

“Warning

Do not use Model 3 for towing purposes. Model 3 does not currently support towing. Towing can cause damage and increase the risk of a collision.

CAUTION

Using Model 3 for towing before Tesla-approved towing components and accessories are available may void the warranty.”

My point is that people need to do their homework. There are a number of EVs (and hybrids) that are not certified to tow. So you hazard your warranty and insurance by doing so. The TM3 is a particularly ridiculous case. The same vehicle in the UK, built in the same Shanghai factory, has an official Tesla-approved towbar, a “trailer” setting in the software, and is certified to tow up to 910kg (braked). So it is obviously capable of towing a light trailer. I looked at a Mercedes EQC the other day. When I pointed out the 50mm receiver below the rear bumper the salesman said “Oh no, it isn’t certified for towing, that’s for a bike rack”.

Of note, I don’t go near Facebook (never have, never will). So your dare is completely wasted.

* Tesla NZ Model 3 Owner’s Manual: Specifications->Vehicle Loading->Towing a Trailer

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

michaelmurfy

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#3002906 29-Nov-2022 07:27

@Dingbatt as a note also any teslas that have third party tow bars installed have not at all had their warranties voided by Tesla. The main guy who does them in NZ as a full time job has also not had a cease and desist from Tesla despite them knowing about him. The Tesla Model 3 can most certainly tow absolutely fine.

They’re also fully capable of towing heavier (braked) trailers also and many people have done so even over larger distances with success.

If the Nissan Leaf can tow, then the Mercedes EQC can also, that’s an absolutely stupid claim from the dealer. I’ve got a friend who drives from Christchurch to Auckland and back reasonably often in a Leaf towing a moderately sized trailer and while this does kill his already terrible range it just shows it can be done absolutely fine.

So yes, while the Tesla does state that they can’t tow in NZ due to no official tow kit or software activation in NZ there has been nobody who has gotten into a pickle by doing so with a third party kit without the software activation.

tdgeek

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#3002908 29-Nov-2022 07:32

michaelmurfy:

There is also less that can go wrong with them, no yearly servicing, no oil changes and again no filling up at the petrol pump.

I read somewhere, may well have been on GZ, that when you buy a new EV you are locked into annual servicing charges, IIRC $700 was mentioned, unsure what brand/vehicle. Assuming you must go to the dealer for an annual service in the warranty period, what do they do? It makes total sense that servicing an ICE does not happen, but there are still many parts that require checks/servicing. I would have thought the annual charge would be 1/3 at most?

michaelmurfy

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#3002912 29-Nov-2022 07:42

@tdgeek yeah I believe dealer tax on the BYD Atto 3 in Australia as the supplier there is a bit of a tosser. In NZ with most dealers you don’t get that but there are a few who will claim a service is required to get extra cash money. They don’t do anything also apart from a safety check and topup the wiper fluid.

Dingbatt

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#3002913 29-Nov-2022 07:43

I think we are arguing at cross purposes.

Yes, EVs are capable of towing. But anyone doing so outside what is permitted by certification and the owner’s manual risks warranty and insurance claims being declined. Tesla NZ won’t decline a warranty claim unless there is some connection to vehicle loading (ie motor or battery overload/overheat etc). Likewise an insurance company may decline an insurance claim if a vehicle has an accident while towing. In both cases the company lawyer would point to the quoted warning and caution and say “Motion to dismiss Your Honour”.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

tdgeek

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#3002917 29-Nov-2022 07:54

michaelmurfy: @tdgeek yeah I believe dealer tax on the BYD Atto 3 in Australia as the supplier there is a bit of a tosser. In NZ with most dealers you don’t get that but there are a few who will claim a service is required to get extra cash money. They don’t do anything also apart from a safety check and topup the wiper fluid.

Thanks. I'd also expect the annual WOF is more than enough to manage the brakes, suspension, lights, and chassis maintenance check

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