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Obraik
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  #3084440 3-Jun-2023 16:40
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Batman:

Obraik:


I wonder if the trial will show that the 590km range of the i4 is overkill and that the range of something like a Model 3 would be more than adequate and allow them to buy two vehicles for the price of one i4.



you think they will be successful chasing baddies in eco mode at 80kph and using regen at every corner?


I'm not sure how that is relevant to what I wrote?




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gzt

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  #3084448 3-Jun-2023 16:51
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Realistically there are going to be very few chases where the same unit is involved for even over 100km. Most of the highway work is just keeping good order.

  #3084454 3-Jun-2023 17:16
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Batman:

 

Police are not buying a car to use 60% of the battery allowance.

 

They will you every single electron available I can guarantee you.

 

Perhaps battery degradation will be part of the trial.

 

 

you have zero clue how they are going to use them, you are just speculating again.

 

 




Dingbatt
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  #3084481 3-Jun-2023 19:33
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Obraik:

 

Obraik: I wonder if the trial will show that the 590km range of the i4 is overkill ……..

 

(snip)

 

I'm not sure how that is relevant to what I wrote?

 

I believe the point Batman was making is, to achieve anything like 590km you would really have to drive like a nanna (and not “the little old lady from Pasadena” either). 135Wh/km for the whole 80kWh to get 590 km. Even the 180Wh/km I used earlier is conservative, a more realistic figure is 200Wh/km+ so 400km or less from 100% battery use.

 

Unless the NZ Police have a special understanding in the contract with BMW NZ, then I would suggest repeatedly taking the battery from 100% to almost 0, day after day, is at variance with battery care instructions. Not only will it reduce the battery life and possibly void the warranty, but also increase the chance of chemical damage that increases the likelihood of thermal runaway (fire).





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


RunningMan
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  #3084485 3-Jun-2023 19:48
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Dingbatt:

 

I believe the point Batman was making is, to achieve anything like 590km you would really have to drive like a nanna 

 

 

Bjorn Nyland got 599km @ 90km/h and 436km @ 120km/h

 

 

 

 

And 670km when driving like nana

 


Dingbatt
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  #3084487 3-Jun-2023 20:03
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RunningMan:

 

Dingbatt:

 

I believe the point Batman was making is, to achieve anything like 590km you would really have to drive like a nanna 

 

 

Bjorn Nyland got 599km @ 90km/h and 436km @ 120km/h

 

…..

 

And 670km when driving like nana

 

 

Quick! Recruit him for the NZ Police!😁

 

I can guarantee most NZ Cops don’t drive a vehicle like Mr Nyland does.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


Batman

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  #3084533 3-Jun-2023 21:34
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Dingbatt:

 

Unless the NZ Police have a special understanding in the contract with BMW NZ, then I would suggest repeatedly taking the battery from 100% to almost 0, day after day, is at variance with battery care instructions. Not only will it reduce the battery life and possibly void the warranty, but also increase the chance of chemical damage that increases the likelihood of thermal runaway (fire).

 

 

i thought Police buys the car and Police owns and runs them and BMW has nothing to do with how the Police uses it? (we had cop showing off their Holdens a few years ago at a school event and we had a good yarn about the cop car operations - police paid for all the maintenance and Holden doesn't tell them what to do. also - he said the cars are not insured as nobody would insure them)

 

and that one is not allowed to charge to 100% on a $125000 car is news to me! but i would genuinely be very surprised if the Police only charge to 80%, i would think they would maximise the use of the car for the service life of the car and then auction them at Turners auction, if it doesn't get destroyed by getting rammed by baddies after 11 months. they are not buying cars to keep for 20 years. but hey I'll be happy for the Police to do their Police thing. all i know is in the deep south island everything is so far apart these cop cars clock a few thousand kms in a 24 hr period, last time i looked at the ex Police cars at the local turners, but that was a few years ago though. not sure how far they drive nowadays but the towns haven't gotten any closer over time.


 
 
 

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Batman

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  #3084537 3-Jun-2023 22:00
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here's an Auckland cop car (on the keys it says Police) 

 

220,000kms over 3.6 years (60,000kms a year)

 

that's just Auckland

 

outside of Cities they travel way further

 

https://www.turners.co.nz/Cars/Used-Cars-for-Sale/holden/commodore/23638121

 

nothing compared to this guy https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41889256/honda-civic-high-mileage-for-sale/

 

 


itxtme
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  #3084545 3-Jun-2023 22:53
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coffeebaron: 
Why would that be odd? It would make sense see how they perform under less ideal circumstances.

 

Its a known quantity though.  A big disadvantage to EV's is the high consumption at high speed.  So lots of 100Km areas are not ideal.  Not really sure what performance one would expect other than you use the battery up very quickly? Again 🤷‍♂️ 


Scott3
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  #3084546 3-Jun-2023 23:42
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On the range, the articles focus a lot on the impact of the weight of police kit, but never seem to discuss the aerodynamic impact of the police kit.

 

From the photos the cars are fitted with a low profile modern light bar, with taller LED screen, and 4 additional antenna's. This is going to have a material impact on highway range.

 

Pity the outfitters didn't get a standard low profile light bar and a stand-alone LED screen, and mount it in the rear number plate position, with the number-plate being moved down to the bumper.

 

-----------

 

On upper charge limit, Pure speculation, but I would expect that the police won't be holding back, and will be charging to 100%, or whatever point their fast charger cuts off. The fastned charge curve seems to stop at around 97%:

 

 

On the lower charge limit, Again just speculation. I think it is a reasonable expectation that officers maintain a minimum fuel / charge level in their cars so that they can respond to emergencies within a reasonable range (will depend on the area, but lets guess 100km) without needing to stop and refuel on the way. For the i4, this would mean stopping to charge before the car gets below 25% or so. So the low end of the battery likely won't see much use.

 

Under urgent duty circumstances, I would expect officers to use the full range (down to zero) if needed. Even this means there is not enough range to get the car back to base (or a fast charger).... Call for a tow truck...

 

Dingbatt:

 

I believe the point Batman was making is, to achieve anything like 590km you would really have to drive like a nanna (and not “the little old lady from Pasadena” either). 135Wh/km for the whole 80kWh to get 590 km. Even the 180Wh/km I used earlier is conservative, a more realistic figure is 200Wh/km+ so 400km or less from 100% battery use.

 

Unless the NZ Police have a special understanding in the contract with BMW NZ, then I would suggest repeatedly taking the battery from 100% to almost 0, day after day, is at variance with battery care instructions. Not only will it reduce the battery life and possibly void the warranty, but also increase the chance of chemical damage that increases the likelihood of thermal runaway (fire).

 

 

The police have stated that they get an average of 27% less economy out of their petrol car's than rating, and that this is worse, So that sets an upper limit of 454km real world. Throw in a particually harsh day / adverse conditions etc, and I think 400km would be in the right ballpark.

 

Of course one of the key points of this trial is to answer that question.

 

 

 

Regarding repeated long range cycling of the battery, I disagree with your stance. 100% displayed and 0% displayed are never truly 100% and 0% on EV's. There is always a bit of a hidden unusable buffer at each end.

My BMW i3 didn't even have the ability to set an upper charge limit, a pretty clear sign that BMW is OK with regular use of that part of the range.

 

I don't see any reason why the warranty would be voided. (that said, I imagine a highway patrol car would consume the 100,000km warranty mileage in months).

 

Yes, operating outside 20 - 80% will see faster degradation staying inside it.

 

I am not aware of any basis that this would result in increased fire risk.

 

[edit] further to this, based on the charger being a 50kW unit, and the car having 83.9kWh nominal battery, the charge rate at the deport will only be 0.59C, which is not super onerous. For comparison my leaf gets up to the 2C mark, and is while it has suffered degradation, is still going strong with over 1100 fast charges.


Bung
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  #3084548 4-Jun-2023 00:18
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A few years back I seem to remember a policy of more stationary patrolling to cut down mileage on vehicles. The expressway around Wellington seem to have lay-bys almost perfectly designed for hull down radar monitoring. You can just see the top of the car over the barrier. All they'd need now is a power connection for a charger.

Scott3
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  #3084550 4-Jun-2023 00:25
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NZ Herald video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhmsvDP_6w

 

States they have matched the vehicles with "quite a high rating charger" - lines up with  the 2 hour charge time from other sources (and hence my guess of 50kW DC) "to be able to turn the vehicles around as quickly as possible"

 

As part of the trial they want to see if they need interaction with public charge infrastructure. Example of an officer plugging in for a 10 min break and adding 80km of range in that time.

 

Discusses that one of the challenges is police vehicles running hot (i.e. used 24/7). NZ police run 3 shifts a day. Will be interesting to see how that gets worked out if the cars need a 2-hour charge between shifts.

 

 

 

----------

 

RNZ article has some interesting info:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018892890/police-reveal-new-electric-patrol-car-to-trial-on-frontline

 

 

 

"One charge lasts 590km, with the average police shift covering up to 500km."

 

500km is going to be challenging, that's 6+ hours of open road driving in NZ conditions... And how can the average police shift cover "up to" 500km?

 

I always imagined that highway policing would largely involve traveling to a targeted enforcement area, observe traffic while stationary, leaving to pull vehicles over as required before before returning to a stationary observation location, then driving home.

 

If a shift does cover 500km (and we assume a 100km lower charge buffer and adverse conditions or uneconomic driving bringing the range down to 400km total), the officer will need a minimum of one big fast charge mid shift.

 

 

 

"We can sometimes see even in our petrol fleet we'll see a reduction in performance of around 27 percent. 

 

"It is larger within the EV, but we need to get a better understanding of what that degradation looks like."

 

 

 

---------

 

One of the nice things about the trial cars being brand new 250kW BMW's is imagined officers will be very keen to be allocated them instead of the holden & skoda's in the general fleet. And as such will go to lengths to get the cars to function in their role (i.e. using public charging when handy, altering policing style to involve more stationary enforcement on days when range may be an issue).

 

I guess that these will be the most desirable, and hence heverly used cars at the trial stations (assuming they can get them charged enough at shift changeover, and don't end up out of service for an entire shift as the state of charge was still too low when the officers wanted to depart). Should give some good data anyway.


Scott3
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  #3084551 4-Jun-2023 00:47
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Bung: A few years back I seem to remember a policy of more stationary patrolling to cut down mileage on vehicles. The expressway around Wellington seem to have lay-bys almost perfectly designed for hull down radar monitoring. You can just see the top of the car over the barrier. All they'd need now is a power connection for a charger.

 

Enforcement pads seem to feature on a lot of more recently designed road's in NZ. Makes sense really. The roading engineers pick out a spot  that is laser gun range from a blind corner or crest (for a highly visible policing), or concealed location like the side of an on-ramp with a good view of traffic heading away.

 

Hard surface will provide for better traction if the officer needs to accelerate hard to merge into traffic, compared to stopping on gravel / grass / dirt.

 

 

 

Stationary enforcement seems like the only viable method for roads with median barriers.

 

On roads without median barriers, it would half the traffic passed (assuming an officer can only enforce in one direction while stationary?), but would reduce car running costs, and eliminate the need for rushed U turns (which have caused multiple crashes and at least one fatality in NZ). I'm sure officers have a strong opinion on what is more effective.


Tinkerisk
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  #3084554 4-Jun-2023 02:11
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You can always use a power bank. 😅

 

 





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Batman

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  #3084564 4-Jun-2023 09:05
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Scott3:"One charge lasts 590km, with the average police shift covering up to 500km."

 

500km is going to be challenging, that's 6+ hours of open road driving in NZ conditions... And how can the average police shift cover "up to" 500km?

 

where i live the cop cars don't seem to park up and nap. towns are few and far between. hardly any humans between these towns. population in the biggest "city" in lower south island is still in the 100,000+ mark.

 

they seem to be driving at 90-100kph GPS speed (100-110 on my speedo).

 

over an 8 hr shift, if they drive for 5 hours that would be 500km.

 

lower south island here it's mountainous, very windy, and bitterly cold in winter.

 

they will need every electron to do that range, maybe a miracle and a prayer.

 

should be ok in Auckland though. maybe.


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