Does the luxury EV use case still stack up cost wise?

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#3178856 8-Jan-2024 07:28

Does this mean that the mechanic trade is going to go the same way as, say, a Farrier? Just a niche trade for those people who can't maintain their own hobby ice?

Bung

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#3178859 8-Jan-2024 07:38

They'll be looking for any excuse to get the diagnostic computer out and charging for it. This already happens with IC cars eg a simple wheel rotation used to be just part of taking the wheels off to check brakes but TPMS means laptop comes out +$40.

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#3178862 8-Jan-2024 07:47

To be honest, I can understand the prices if a mechanic going up significantly.

If evs don't need mechanics anywhere near as often as an ice, then there isn't going to be the same volume of work there is now. Garages will lay people off, mechanic will become more specialised, prices will go up?

Or am I missing something here, are EV owners are looking through rose-tinted glasses? I acknowledge no engine, and the work that comes with that, but an EV still has wheel bearings, shock absorbers, bushes, brake lines and battery cooling systems etc. To expect that none of this will require maintenance seems a little naive to me.

billgates

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#3178917 8-Jan-2024 10:39

BMW i4 e40 is an awesome car. We ended up with iX1 over i4 only due to couple of very young kids still going to be in there kids seats for next 6 years atleast and the rear space in i4 was cramped with kids in there seat when we did the test drive else the i4 was the choice for both me and my wife over iX1. If you have kids in seats then the i4 rear seats will not be comfy on long drives as you will need to move your driver and passenger seats forward.

As for the i4 comparison to the Tesla (Model 3), the difference in ride quality, handling, build quality, equipment list, customer service etc is night and day. Tesla can do better but Elon needs to leave. Tesla has had plenty of safety issues with there cars known to them that the company has supressed to avoid recalls or lawsuits. Both NHTSA in US, China and EU have now started to call out Tesla and force recalls. FSD is an outright dangerous $10k add on scam which is classed as BETA. Autopilot is horrible from a safety point of view. I have been inside a Model 3 in NZ that phantom braked on a motorway and it was scary. We were lucky that no one was behind us. Tesla has phantom braking issues with there assisted driving (autopilot). The suspension is stiff though the new highland has improved this but it's still classed as firm by reputable car reviewers. There is no HUD, front facing speedometer. The aircon is useless in summer heat as there is no retractable cover on top and its all glass sunroof. I was sitting in the passenger seat and wanted to turn off the aircon on my side and turns out you cannot if the driver side aircon is running.

The warranty on Tesla is inferior compared to any other brand. 4 years or 80,000km. All the brands I know of incl BMW do 5 years 100,000km or above. With BMW you get 3 free servicing and each servicing is after 2 years so you are covered for 6 years. There is no legal requirement in NZ where a dealer or brand can force servicing needing to be done by dealership for warranty to stay intact btw. There is no apple carplay or android auto in Tesla. I use both Waze and MS Teams all the time in my car. I could not live without Waze. So handy to know police, accidents, speed cameras, hazards, faster route re-claculations etc ahead. There is no 360 degrees camera in Tesla. The new highland model has no ultrasonic parking sensors and has no stalks for indicators which is dumb. The removal of parking sensors is silly because you can watch the below video and just see how bad the vision camera system really is. The auto wipers barely work when they should work. No matrix headlights in Tesla. You cannot adjust the height of headrest as it's a fixed seat and you rather sit on the seat instead of sitting in the seat in Tesla. There is no massage seats for front passengers in Tesla unlike in i4. There is no front seats extenders in Tesla unlike in i4. There is no lumbar support for front passenger in Tesla unlike in i4. No kick opening tailgate in Tesla unlike in i4. There is no free coasting option in Tesla unlike in i4 and most other EV's. The coast option in Tesla stil applies the regen brakes as soon as you let go of the accelerator but at slower braking pace but still. In my iX1 and i4 we tested, coasting is true coasting or you can use the full B mode which is 1 pedal driving.

Tesla has no dealership network outside Auckland, Wellington and Christrchurch. The mobile service can only do so much. Any major repairs, you need to take it back to Tesla. There are plenty of BMW dealerships and other EV brand dealerships in NZ. Loan cars and warranty issues are not a problem.

Tesla has a good app and big tablet in the middle I think and that's what attracts most of it's buyers. I would rather go sit inside a BYD Atto 3 than a Model Y or Model 3. Model S and X are different leagues. They are better equipped like better suspensions, front facing speedometer etc but for that price, BMW and Mercedes will run circles around it still. Tesla does not gets the car part right which is the most important part IMO. They get some of the tech right. Watch the 2nd video. Having a working aircon is a big thing that should throw air where you want it. The test shown in 2nd video shows how useless the aircon is and in summer thats a problem along with the big glass sunroof that you cannot close.

Tesla Vision Parking update (no parking sensors) does it work yet? (youtube.com)

Tesla Model Y is far from perfect | 10+ things that could be better - YouTube

Another sedan car instead you can consider is BYD Seal but the i4 would still beat that from comfort and luxury point of view. Since we have had the iX1 we have done 7100km in 83 days and saved $1500 in fuel costs. We never drove this much in an ICE. Even if we have to start paying RUC's, we are still looking at saving $1000 in fuel costs. Fuel prices will go up and thats a given once or twice a year atleast. You will drive more when you have EV because it's either free to charge (we have solar panels on the roof) or use an EV plan or the likes of Contact or Z power plan that give you 3 hours of free power a night which will charge up your car and cover your daily charging needs really well.

I am surprised about your high insurance quote as my iX1 with agreed value for $99k is $1388/year premium with $1000 excess with no excess on glass. Try a broker for quotes as we use a broker for all our insurances.

Do whatever you want to do man.

robjg63

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#3178918 8-Jan-2024 10:50

tdgeek:

Not dismissing your post as I love EVs but they dont work for us , yet

Ive read many many times here that they are almost maintenance free, yes I get that. Brakes, tyres, wiper fluid. But others here have posted $700 (IIRC) annual servicing fees? Thats Tesla, unsure of other brands.

To be clear - Tesla doesnt have an 'annual' service plan.

Most of the 'service' items have helpful videos on the Tesla website on how you can do it yourself.

Filters, wipers etc.

Many other EV's do have an 'annual' service plan (BYD and MG for sure).

TBH, I think that is mainly because they are sold through 'legacy' dealers who still want some ongoing business for their service centres, rather than the car actually needing any particular servicing. But they will likely insist on the 'service' for 'warranty purposes'.

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

KrazyKid

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#3178935 8-Jan-2024 11:51

My maths had the MG4 brought new in October costing about the same as buying a 3 yer old second hand Toyota Corrolla after 6 years.
The depreciation was offset by the fuel savings (and the goverement rebate at the time).
Like you I only drive 10,000 KM in a year.
And that included RUC coming into play.

I suspect now it will cost you slightly more than break even (maybe an extra $1000 a year?), but if (when) petrol prices go up over the next few years that will offset the extra costs.

Banks are still offering interest free (or low interest) green loans to put to an electric car whih may help your maths as well.

I find electic cars so much nicer to drive I never want to go back to petrol.
And you get to feel good about helping the planet if that matters to you.

Finally if you are looking at a second car for around town a second hand Nissan Leaf is a no brainer IMHO.

Oh and surpising my insurance for a $47,000 MG4 was only $900 PA - much cheaper than I thought it would be.

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#3178979 8-Jan-2024 13:29

Jase2985:

so no windscreen wipers? no wiper fluid?

no windscreen wipers change needed, still soft and wipes fine.

wiper fluid - actually no, not added anything as far as i can recall. i only drive in the city. i use rain water (as it rains) to clean the screen and activate the wipers when it is raining, no need to pull on the washer lever.

tyres still the same set, currently ~4mm all round.

the car does not leave town. i have ICEs for that purpose - skiing/offroading, towing, carrying 8 people + luggage, etc. no EV within my affordability range can do these at the moment.

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Talkiet

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#3178984 8-Jan-2024 13:41

I replaced a V8 infiniti SUV with an Audi Etron55. My cost per km (fuel/power only) went from $0.50/km to about $0.045/km. RUC will increase that for sure but it's still going to be under a 3rd of the cost of exploding dinosaurs.

The Audi definitely falls into the luxury end of the EV market and it's easily the best car I've ever owned. I don't do a lot of long distance driving but drove to Motueka and back (from Chch) over Xmas and managed to find the new 150kw chargers in Blenheim - The car actually charged at 146kw for 80+% of the charge so it was barely enough time to walk to the supermarket across the road and buy a snack and get back to the car!

That said... Does it make financial sense? No. Absolutely not. I still second guess myself as to whether for the same money I should have bought a Merc AMG GLC63s which would be MUCH faster, more luxurious and never have range anxiety - but on balance, despite it being a dumb financial decision, I am very very happy with the Audi.

If you want to stop using fossil fuels on principle, then go for it... If you want to save money, keep your current car or buy a second hand newer leaf.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Aaroona

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#3179465 9-Jan-2024 18:34

Thanks everyone for chipping in, particularly @billgates who came in with i4 specifics!

I'm in a position where I own a 12 year old bmw, I've had it for most of its life and I've loved it, but am now looking to move it on. So it is my only vehicle and I don't have a family to worry about, just some weekends away with friends where we often take my car.

I managed to get a full weekend test drive with an i4 and definitely put it through its paces. Frankly, I loved the experience (mostly) with only a few drawbacks. Some can be fixed with spending more money on options, like the Harmon Kardon sound system vs standard BMW Hifi which was a bit average or ventilated seats, but others, like the rear passengers leg room are just something I'd have to live with - but as the driver, it wasn't a huge downfall for me.

The real problem for me is around charging. My current place does not have any 3-pin plugs, and the BC are notoriously difficult for doing anything remotely helpful or that would require more than 2 seconds thought (thanks OnePlace). So for me I would be needing to use public charging a bit more frequently, until I look at moving to another place which would be better enabled for home charging. This led me to look at what the costs would be.

I put together a really basic spreadsheet which has a few assumptions like fixed energy costs for Electricity and Petrol, as well as fixed RUC's. I was able to use real-world kWh/100km range details from my weekend, as well as my KM history from Carjam to get an idea of where it crosses over from being cheaper, cost neutral or more expensive to have an EV. this does not account for depreciation and upfront capital, which is probably the biggest sticking point.

It seems that even if I were to use supercharging/public charging 100% of the time (calculated at .85c/kW which is the most expensive I've seen) and assumed a slightly lower l/100km than I am currently achieving (9 vs 10.6), it still came away 14% or so better off at least. This delta grows significantly when I consider how much 98 fuel is (what i use) at most stations except the cheap one I found, and if I were to bring my average kW rate down to even say .40c/kW, that brings almost a 50% reduction in my fuel costs per year including RUC's.

So really it's just about whether I can swallow the depreciation of a newer vehicle, since the i4 hasn't been on the market all that long, therefore has almost zero secondhand vehicles available, coupled with higher depreciation "coz ev", and a higher capital cost. It goes against my usual judgement to not buy cars that are new because of the depreciation.

EDIT: Re insurance costs, I did a quote with Star insurance for both vehicle option (tesla and bmw) - they came back between 600-1000 cheaper than IAG. Still at around 2400-2600, but much better.

KrazyKid

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#3179474 9-Jan-2024 19:21

If your BC allows it Genesis has an EV plan where you pay your home per gets on selected chargenet fast chargers. That may suit you....

mudguard

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#3179479 9-Jan-2024 19:35

Honestly if you can't charge at home it would be enough to put me off an EV until you can. I think it would quickly turn into an annoying hassle.

gzt

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#3179493 9-Jan-2024 21:12

aaroona: My current place does not have any 3-pin plugs, and the BC are notoriously difficult for doing anything remotely helpful or that would require more than 2 seconds thought (thanks OnePlace).

There should be a law against it, or a reasonable steps law for it ; )

OnePlace: We love our tenants and they love us too. We want to make your renting experience an enjoyable one, and we are here to help

Imo they're missing an opportunity. The simple solution is surface mount from your carpark to your meter which is probably not too far away.

The longer solution is a dedicated charger bay installed with a partner like chargenet or similar doing all the legwork. Ultimately either option will make the property attractive for EV driving tennants. It will become a nicer quieter place and OnePlace can add some green points environment goodvibes humblebrags to the marketing while presumably getting a kickback per kWh.

mdav056

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#3179502 9-Jan-2024 22:31

KrazyKid:

My maths had the MG4 brought new in October costing about the same as buying a 3 yer old second hand Toyota Corrolla after 6 years.
The depreciation was offset by the fuel savings (and the goverement rebate at the time).
Like you I only drive 10,000 KM in a year.
And that included RUC coming into play.

I suspect now it will cost you slightly more than break even (maybe an extra $1000 a year?), but if (when) petrol prices go up over the next few years that will offset the extra costs.

Banks are still offering interest free (or low interest) green loans to put to an electric car whih may help your maths as well.

I find electic cars so much nicer to drive I never want to go back to petrol.
And you get to feel good about helping the planet if that matters to you.

Finally if you are looking at a second car for around town a second hand Nissan Leaf is a no brainer IMHO.

Oh and surpising my insurance for a $47,000 MG4 was only $900 PA - much cheaper than I thought it would be.

My story almost exactly, except I traded in my 2014 Leaf for the base MG4 before Christmas, and with trade-in I spent about $35K. It is a great car, and so cheap (and my first ever new car). I spent only about $80 on the Leaf while I had it, and am very grateful for 4 x the range on the MG4 -- and, for peace of mind, the 7-year warranty. Too late now, I fear, to get the discount, but the discount proportion was best on a cheap car. It will probably see me out!

Then I installed an EVNEX EV2, which was costly, but I can again charge the car from 0 to 100 on cheap electricity overnight.

I would never ever go back to a smoky banger, or even to the hybrid Priuses I had previously.

gml

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#3179534 10-Jan-2024 08:27

morrisk:
This type of discussion has happened a number of times here on Geekzone over the last 5 or more years.

My view has always been the same - the change from ICE to EV is needed as one of the actions we must take to try to reduce emissions in the hope of slowing global warming.

Given the impact that global warming is already happening and the costs associated with these impacts, the costs/savings and benefits/disadvantages of EV versus ICE at an individual level are insignificant.

If you can afford to make the change from ICE to EV then do it.

The discussion here is the cost comparison, not your views on global warming.

The reason that these discussions continue to happen is that the cost comparison change over time. For example an EV in my price range didn't have the range required or I had to spend more and be lumbered with higher depreciation.

I've got a 2018 leaf 40kw purely from a cost saving benefit. Being only 5 years old it has already depreciated over 60% of its value but still has 89% battery health. I predict depreciation will slow rapidly and it will hold its value unlike the 30kw leafs.

I'm terms of getting it for the environment there is bugger all difference for the environment. EV do a lot more damage to the environment during production yet they are brain washing people into believing they are green. People should buy the car that works out the best for them whether it's financially or that they enjoy driving like my ute which means I can go where the leaf can't and have fun in the outdoors

alasta

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#3179535 10-Jan-2024 08:39

gzt:
aaroona: My current place does not have any 3-pin plugs, and the BC are notoriously difficult for doing anything remotely helpful or that would require more than 2 seconds thought (thanks OnePlace).

There should be a law against it, or a reasonable steps law for it ; )

It's not always that simple. In my complex the privately owned car parks are underneath a structure that is owned by a third party and the electrical infrastructure is therefore not under the immediate jurisdiction of the body corporate.

The longer solution is a dedicated charger bay installed with a partner like chargenet or similar doing all the legwork. Ultimately either option will make the property attractive for EV driving tennants. It will become a nicer quieter place and OnePlace can add some green points environment goodvibes humblebrags to the marketing while presumably getting a kickback per kWh.

We have looked into this at my complex but, based on our experience, it is highly likely that nuisance vehicles will occupy the charging bays without having any need for the chargers. This creates a parking enforcement burden which ultimately has to be funded by all members, the majority of whom do not own an electric vehicle.

Electric vehicles are a great solution for some use cases, but they really require access to a private garage for charging purposes.

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