Insurers questioning indoor EV chargers?

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#3197885 20-Feb-2024 13:21

Eva888:

*I know of two house fires caused by charging an e-bike and an e-scooter. In both cases, the insurance companies have taken several months to finally advise non-coverage, claiming the policyholders did not fulfil their duty of care, a.k.a. they were negligent in reducing the risk of Lithium-ion fires.

https://cybershack.com.au/consumer-advice/does-insurance-cover-a-lithium-ion-battery-fire-maybe-and-probably-not/

After reading the above article, I would now be inclined to have it in writing that I am covered for any large lithium ion battery item. By leaving wording so vague the insurance company can turn the situation to their benefit.

I personally do not lump EV's with other commodity devices such as e-Bikes and e-Scooters. The manufacturing QC is (or should be) immensely different.

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danielparker

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#3197895 20-Feb-2024 13:43

robjg63:

Bung:

Why shouldn't insurance companies be nervous? They even warn about leaving mobile phones charging while unattended.

"Jaguar Land Rover’s New Zealand arm has confirmed that it will be recalling all locally owned examples of its fully electric I-Pace over fire risk concerns, with owners told that they should “park away from structures where possible and charge the vehicle outside”. June 2023

That particular car should be recalled and scrapped. It is just unsafe. Each time they have tried to mitigate the problem of bad batteries and each time the problems continue.

Do you have a source for this? I am aware that they issued a recall and software update (H441) that detected bad cells, and if detected limited charging to 75% until the bad module was replaced. I'm not aware of anything further, hence my question.

Disrespective

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#3197896 20-Feb-2024 13:45

Thanks all for your replies. As someone who specifies a lot of these in new builds it was surprising to hear. Moreso as he is someone who I wouldn't assume to follow heresay and speculation. In any case it sounds like it is still very much a rumor for now and we can rest easy.

Kookoo

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#3197902 20-Feb-2024 13:57

Bung:

Known faulty product like Dux Qest plumbing that was supposed to have been replaced about 30 years ago is an issue for new insurance. If you are covered and claim for a leak you will probably be required to replace all remaining Qest.

Been there, done that. Dux Quest is a pain, but you can get a plumber to put in place a pressure reducing valve, and that's enough of a mitigation for the insurer. Point being - insurers are happy if you put a mitigation in place, as long as it's done by a certified professional. I'm sure same would apply to EV chargers, if it ever even came to that at all.

Hello, Ground!

Batman

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#3197911 20-Feb-2024 14:21

i personally know of (direct friends) one house fire from a charging laptop, another had a burning ebike battery

i still charge my laptop but i don't have an ebike

i make sure my insurance premiums are paid

MikeB4

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#3197926 20-Feb-2024 14:42

This story must subject to confirmation or its rumour. Having said that this would be inline with insurance companies constant attempts to weasel out of claims or hike premiums.

mattwnz

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#3197936 20-Feb-2024 15:03

Inphinity:

I've also heard that insurers are considering not insuring any building that has indoor plumbing, to mitigate the risk of having to cover water damage if a pipe leaks. And yes, I know at least one person who thinks that's a genuine policy change that's likely.

Anyway, my point is that there are always lots of rumours about various things, but I'd wait for some formal information from insurers or underwriters to think of it as closer to happening.

I know your post was supposed to be a joke, but it isn't far off. . https://www.nzhousesurveys.co.nz/Events/19/Buyer-Beware:-Dux-Qest-Plumbing-

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Goosey

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#3197963 20-Feb-2024 16:00

I reckon if anything, if you do have a home charger or EV for that matter, they will want to know and charge premium accordingly (and also want proof any charger has been installed as per spec / requirements) and that the charging lead for any “standard wall socket plug in’s”, is tested and tagged regularly.

$$$ is what the insurance company wants.

if you don’t declare…they won’t pay.

of you do declare, they charge more.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3198000 20-Feb-2024 17:44

Wombat1:

Its far from rumours, at least this side of the Tasman. Given that many insurance companies in NZ are Aussie owned, if it becomes a thing here, it certanly will become a thing in NZ too.

Insurers still assessing EV fire risks (goauto.com.au)

Honestly I feel this confirms the fact that it is nothing but rumours:

News site heard rumours and asked insurers
Insurers said:
- no plans for any changes
- always looking at evidence (duh)
- EVs themselves attract higher premiums because they're expensive and hard to fix
Article then segues into scareware about battery fire and an ad for a firm consulting on battery safety.

The safety record on mid-size batteries in between a laptop and a car is pretty terrible - this is the few hundred Wh to few kWh range that e-scooters live in. Lots of trash, very little QC, typically relies on external chargers rather than onboard like laptop/phone and EV slow charging, or onboard-controlled-offboard like power tools and EV fast chargers.

The use of fully external chargers without communication to and control from a temperature-monitoring BMS should be all but banned, barring RC folks who are typically competent and use fire bags.

Scott3

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#3198029 20-Feb-2024 21:05

michaelmurfy:

Lets not start the EV Fire debate as it simply is not a thing.

If you think it is a thing then show me evidence of a single EV Battery Fire that has happened in New Zealand reported by the media who seriously love reporting anything negative about electric vehicles. Not talking about that house fire in the Coromandel fire late last year that was rumored to be an EV (Coromandel bach fire: EV not to blame for devastating blaze at $3.7m Cooks Beach property) or the Auckland Harbor Bridge Tesla fire last year also that was caused by a drunk driver who was driving at motorway speeds on a flat tyre she curbed earlier.

The thing is there is so much misinformation out there but the fact is Electric Vehicles are far less likely to burst into flames than their dinosaur fuel cousins:

(Source: https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/ )

And while it is true that an EV Battery fire is harder to put out there are solutions for that in the form of EV Fire Blankets that places like the ferries have also: https://bridgehill.com/fire-blankets/car/

But again, if you believe that EV fires happen all the time you're mistaken. Hybrid fires perhaps (which many people get confused with) but EV fires are actually incredibly rare.

Scooters and Electric Bikes however are a different story. These are often built at a cost and do not have the same battery management systems a modern EV has. This discussion isn't about that however. But EV misinformation is seriously out of control.

I write my response as an EV owner, so I am not bagging EV's, just pointing out that NZ has had EV fires

"If you think it is a thing then show me evidence of a single EV Battery Fire that has happened in New Zealand reported by the media who seriously love reporting anything negative about electric vehicles."

There have been a few.

BMW i3 REX: While driving

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125008447/occupants-lucky-escape-as-vehicle-destroyed-in-highway-blaze

Peugeot e-208 GT: While parked

https://evsandbeyond.co.nz/investigation-into-wellington-ev-fire/

Pipistrel Taurus Electro G2 - Self launching glider: While airborne (Sadly this one was fatal. The glider was fitted with a whole air frame parachute, meaning it was unlikely the pilot was wearing a personal parachute.)

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/lithium-battery-fire-caused-glider-crash-that-killed-far-north-pilot/WVCSAPMETC3QASHXUX5AT5UY3M/

https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/publications/fatal-accident-reports/ZK-GEL-Final-Report-7-December-2020.pdf

We have had a near miss too. Nissan Leaf: After crashing (thermal runaway with fire service in attendance, which prevented it from becoming a fire).

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/130148546/electric-car-doused-by-firefighters-after-smoking-battery-hits-thermal-runaway

And of course the well-publicized Auckland harbor bridge Tesla fire (which was caused by the intoxicated driver driving at speed on a flat tire, rather than anything EV specific)

tweake

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#3198034 20-Feb-2024 21:29

whats your guys thoughts on the new sodium battery thats just started to come out. i understand one manufacture has a car with it, but another manufacture is building a new factory to make them.

they are meant to be far more stable ie not catch on fire, or at least get thermal run away. (no oxides in the battery). also handle cold temps a whole lot better. downside is lack of capacity, so you get reduced range for the size/weight of the battery.

insane

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#3198039 20-Feb-2024 21:43

tweake:
whats your guys thoughts on the new sodium battery thats just started to come out. i understand one manufacture has a car with it, but another manufacture is building a new factory to make them.

they are meant to be far more stable ie not catch on fire, or at least get thermal run away. (no oxides in the battery). also handle cold temps a whole lot better. downside is lack of capacity, so you get reduced range for the size/weight of the battery.

When I was a kid a family friend who worked in a university lab brought some substances over in a jar of oil and asked us to get two big bowls of water.

A chunk of Sodium was put into water and I recall it floating and melting into a ball and exploding leaving burning chunks embedded in our covered deck's pine ceiling. The lithium was dropped into water in our garden and produced a similar explosion but in a somewhat safer location.

Both substances are highly volatile from what I've seen.

elpenguino

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#3198090 20-Feb-2024 21:53

insane:
tweake:

whats your guys thoughts on the new sodium battery thats just started to come out. i understand one manufacture has a car with it, but another manufacture is building a new factory to make them.

they are meant to be far more stable ie not catch on fire, or at least get thermal run away. (no oxides in the battery). also handle cold temps a whole lot better. downside is lack of capacity, so you get reduced range for the size/weight of the battery.

When I was a kid a family friend who worked in a university lab brought some substances over in a jar of oil and asked us to get two big bowls of water.

A chunk of Sodium was put into water and I recall it floating and melting into a ball and exploding leaving burning chunks embedded in our covered deck's pine ceiling. The lithium was dropped into water in our garden and produced a similar explosion but in a somewhat safer location.

Both substances are highly volatile from what I've seen.

In the metallic form, yes. Check out this video which shows the US Army dumping sodium a ton at a time.

https://youtu.be/HY7mTCMvpEM

I am guessing the sodium battery mentioned doesn't use the metallic form, and the battery is sealed to prevent water ingress as well.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

michaelmurfy

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#3198103 20-Feb-2024 22:48

tweake: whats your guys thoughts on the new sodium battery thats just started to come out. i understand one manufacture has a car with it, but another manufacture is building a new factory to make them.

they are meant to be far more stable ie not catch on fire, or at least get thermal run away. (no oxides in the battery). also handle cold temps a whole lot better. downside is lack of capacity, so you get reduced range for the size/weight of the battery.

Sounds a whole lot like LFP to me which is currently the most common battery type on the road (just another reason why I state EV fires are super rare):

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MikeAqua

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#3198131 21-Feb-2024 08:33

We have a PHEV at work for short trips to pick up parts, people etc. The charge point is outdoors, but under an overhanging part of the building. The insurer sends a guy every couple of years to review the site, mostly for fire risk. He was interested in the charger, but it wasn't a case of "OMG an EV charger, we're doomed!".

Mike

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